[Rumor] CX considering cancelling 777X order
#106
Join Date: Jan 2012
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What about motion sickness? Growing up as a kid, I use to suffer from it from time to time. Even on the train, I would pick the front facing seat for fear of getting symptoms. I'm not sure what would happen if I get a rear facing seat on an aircraft, but I probably wouldn't want to risk it on an intercontinental flight.
#107
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Don't worry. Real-facing seats are actually better seats IMHO.
Aircrafts do not fly horizontally, but in a small upward angle. So when I was in a front-facing lie-flat seat, I had to adjust the lie-flat angle so that my head was not downward. But with a rear-facing seat, I don't have to do that and I can sleep quite well.
However, takeoff is another story.
Aircrafts do not fly horizontally, but in a small upward angle. So when I was in a front-facing lie-flat seat, I had to adjust the lie-flat angle so that my head was not downward. But with a rear-facing seat, I don't have to do that and I can sleep quite well.
However, takeoff is another story.
#109
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 946
I know that the idea of facing backward turns people off but it's not that big a deal. IMO, the best J seats on BA (current gen CW, if you have a bulkhead to avoid climbing over anyone) and QR (Qsuites) are at the windows and it's well worth the "trade-off."
#110
Join Date: Nov 2014
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Don't worry. Real-facing seats are actually better seats IMHO.
Aircrafts do not fly horizontally, but in a small upward angle. So when I was in a front-facing lie-flat seat, I had to adjust the lie-flat angle so that my head was not downward. But with a rear-facing seat, I don't have to do that and I can sleep quite well.
However, takeoff is another story.
Aircrafts do not fly horizontally, but in a small upward angle. So when I was in a front-facing lie-flat seat, I had to adjust the lie-flat angle so that my head was not downward. But with a rear-facing seat, I don't have to do that and I can sleep quite well.
However, takeoff is another story.
#111
Join Date: Nov 2017
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Posts: 1,310
For now, the internals about this, are written in the stars.
Have a good read: I don't think your assumption about a replacement of the 777X for another airplane is wrong, I even think, that's right.
Though, that's not my message
All signs are, the 777X is being dropped by Boeing, for now, in its current format, etc.
And, if Boeing comes up with a 767NEO in near future, then, that could be the replacement order for the current 777X CX order. Near future would be some 3(+ ?) years before first customer delivery, from now. That timing would fit with the current Corona-recovery and economic situation.
For regional operations, a small(er) 787 is just to heavy (in weight). It needs to be something else, a 767NEO or a complete new mid-market aircraft.
There are simply to many big customers "dropping" the 777X, without Boeing complaining, on the contrary, Boeing seems to be happy to go along with these order cancellations/changes. And, it also matches with the reports CX seemingly extending leases for another 10 years on part of their 773ERs. Boeing gets a "second chance" from CX, so to say. Otherwise, it'll be Airbus.
Have a good read: I don't think your assumption about a replacement of the 777X for another airplane is wrong, I even think, that's right.
Though, that's not my message
All signs are, the 777X is being dropped by Boeing, for now, in its current format, etc.
And, if Boeing comes up with a 767NEO in near future, then, that could be the replacement order for the current 777X CX order. Near future would be some 3(+ ?) years before first customer delivery, from now. That timing would fit with the current Corona-recovery and economic situation.
For regional operations, a small(er) 787 is just to heavy (in weight). It needs to be something else, a 767NEO or a complete new mid-market aircraft.
There are simply to many big customers "dropping" the 777X, without Boeing complaining, on the contrary, Boeing seems to be happy to go along with these order cancellations/changes. And, it also matches with the reports CX seemingly extending leases for another 10 years on part of their 773ERs. Boeing gets a "second chance" from CX, so to say. Otherwise, it'll be Airbus.
#112
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SFO/HKG
Programs: ex-UA 1K, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 535
There was a thread a couple years ago on the BA forum about their rear-facing club world seats and people who were sensitive to traveling in a moving vehicle facing backwards. If I recall most people who were usually uncomfortable (motion sickness) facing backwards didn’t experience much discomfort facing backwards on a plane. I myself tend to be very uncomfortable traveling backwards on a train or cab (UK black cabs have rear-facing seats) and I have had no discomfort at all with either BA or AA rear-facing seats.
On a rear-facing aircraft seat, the forward/backward G forces won't nearly be as choppy as the crazy cabbie.
#113
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 145
I notice that the OP quotes a source that specifies the list price for the 21 aircraft, not an actual agreed-upon price. Is that information not publicly available or what? (Sorry for the stupid question - I really have no sense at all about this sort of thing.)
thanks for the paraphrase
Can you really feel it? (not intending to cast doubt; am curious with regards to people being more sensitive to sleeping angle)
Mind pulling a QRC3288 sleeping backwards in 15A (just in an attempt to isolate other factors) when it becomes feasible?
Don't worry. Real-facing seats are actually better seats IMHO.
Aircrafts do not fly horizontally, but in a small upward angle. So when I was in a front-facing lie-flat seat, I had to adjust the lie-flat angle so that my head was not downward. But with a rear-facing seat, I don't have to do that and I can sleep quite well.
However, takeoff is another story.
Aircrafts do not fly horizontally, but in a small upward angle. So when I was in a front-facing lie-flat seat, I had to adjust the lie-flat angle so that my head was not downward. But with a rear-facing seat, I don't have to do that and I can sleep quite well.
However, takeoff is another story.
Can you really feel it? (not intending to cast doubt; am curious with regards to people being more sensitive to sleeping angle)
Mind pulling a QRC3288 sleeping backwards in 15A (just in an attempt to isolate other factors) when it becomes feasible?
#114
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,832
The list price is merely indicative, airlines can see a discount of 30-60% against that based on a number of factors (inc of course size of order as well as how desperate the manufacturer is to make the sale, the marquee value of the airline, if an airline is swapping [especially low-cost] orders or options held on one aircraft type for another aircraft type).
This is also why you'd never see how much an airline actually paid for aircraft, not only is this commercial-in-confidence but if Airbus or Boeing were to share those numbers for say CX, then every other airline would know how much they should or should not be paying vs the list price.
#115
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thanks for the paraphrase
Can you really feel it? (not intending to cast doubt; am curious with regards to people being more sensitive to sleeping angle)
Mind pulling a QRC3288 sleeping backwards in 15A (just in an attempt to isolate other factors) when it becomes feasible?
Can you really feel it? (not intending to cast doubt; am curious with regards to people being more sensitive to sleeping angle)
Mind pulling a QRC3288 sleeping backwards in 15A (just in an attempt to isolate other factors) when it becomes feasible?
You can really feel it even everyone's sensitivity is different (especially those who take pills).
#116
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 725
Not at all a stupid question, and one that's very often asked!
The list price is merely indicative, airlines can see a discount of 30-60% against that based on a number of factors (inc of course size of order as well as how desperate the manufacturer is to make the sale, the marquee value of the airline, if an airline is swapping [especially low-cost] orders or options held on one aircraft type for another aircraft type).
This is also why you'd never see how much an airline actually paid for aircraft, not only is this commercial-in-confidence but if Airbus or Boeing were to share those numbers for say CX, then every other airline would know how much they should or should not be paying vs the list price.
The list price is merely indicative, airlines can see a discount of 30-60% against that based on a number of factors (inc of course size of order as well as how desperate the manufacturer is to make the sale, the marquee value of the airline, if an airline is swapping [especially low-cost] orders or options held on one aircraft type for another aircraft type).
This is also why you'd never see how much an airline actually paid for aircraft, not only is this commercial-in-confidence but if Airbus or Boeing were to share those numbers for say CX, then every other airline would know how much they should or should not be paying vs the list price.
Catching up for a few drinks after each years IATAs conference could also get lips moving surely?!?!
#117
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At the minimum, even you know how much others are paying per aircraft, it does not mean you can use that price for your own benefit.
#118
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 253
I've always wondered about this - surely the airlines have some sort of market intelligence about what others are paying? Not least as airline execs often go from airline to another!
Catching up for a few drinks after each years IATAs conference could also get lips moving surely?!?!
Catching up for a few drinks after each years IATAs conference could also get lips moving surely?!?!
Just like buying a car an aircraft has lots of optional items that airlines can customize and there is also maintenance and/or crew training program, parts and a lot of other stuff that comes into the package. Sometimes people can figure out the discount rate of aircraft orders from airline's financial statements, but without knowing the other parts on what is included it is still only a rough estimate.
#119
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 725
For example, if I worked for American, we paid $140m for each 787. I now work for United, I cant "forget" the information I picked up when at AA. I'm going to press and neogtiate with Boeing as hard as me and my team can
As per the other reply to my question there are many different variables, however pretending airline execs who move around simply forget and not use what they know is unrealistic (and the same goes in other industries where people move around)
Last edited by SW7London; Jun 7, 2020 at 6:25 am Reason: Added "For example" to clarify I dont work for AA or UA!
#120
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My assumption was UA ordered the most 787 in the U.S., i.e. presumptive cheapest. I did not realize that AA has the most orders.
FWIW - I do believe that UA's price is cheaper than AA, now or later. UA's A350 order does not look good.