Vietnam to US mistake fare discussion - 2019 Cathay New Year's gift
Jan 2, 2019, 9:22 am
#106
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: YVR, KUL
Programs: AC, MH, BA, AF-KL
Posts: 2,904
Jan 2, 2019, 9:25 am
#107
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 481
i noted CX has finally removed the whole fare from the system now.
when you change the date, if the underlying fare basis is no longer there, then they have to reprice it.
basically I think the nightmare will start when these people need to change dates,
Jan 2, 2019, 9:31 am
#108
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Programs: Global Mercenary
Posts: 193
Just wanted to point out some references that show my comment above is not "unfair".
Example of describing paying customers as something subhuman or lower caste.
Example of describing paying customers as being greedy then without basis accusing them of attempted subversion of DOT rules.
Mobs of greedy travellers.
Describing paying customers as riffraff and praying they'll be kicked out of F to J without compensation!
Describing paying passengers as arbing backpackers? Really? Then calling on others to leave CX as revenge!
I hope you see these comments I've attached (some of which belong to you) are quite vindictive and unfair to real people. Fearing an F cabin full of boorish, smelly backpackers who gamed the system is really quite irrational.
Example of describing paying customers as something subhuman or lower caste.
Interesting as to what AF did, but then who filled up the F seats? I would assume they have to oversell F (something that CX doesn't do) then downgrade these people.
From a pure business perspective, no way CX would honor these tickets. Risk of backlash from their upscale clients much bigger than any risk coming from these [purchasers].
From a pure business perspective, no way CX would honor these tickets. Risk of backlash from their upscale clients much bigger than any risk coming from these [purchasers].
The cancellation fee per the fare rule if being enforced, would have deterrent effect to those who go into an orgy on mistake fares.
So in the future there would not be such feeding frenzy on mistake fares.
Chasing mistake fare is one thing, booking sizable number of trips is another. There are many posts about booking 4, 8, 9 trips but the 17 takes the cake.
These greedy people all think they have nothing to lose if the airlines dont honor the tickets, all they lose would be a temporary usage of their credit lines. Some even suggest to book the most expensive Nonrefundable related bookings, so to force CX to pay those expenses according to DOT's rules,
DOT's previous overly generous rules on airlines must honor their publicly available fares have led to the unforseen consequences that is clearly NOT DOT's original intention. That the frenzy of each time a mistake fare is found, fanned by the bloggers, have essentially made DOT rethinks its position, and let the airlines off the hook from some harsh punishment.
I say AF has done it right - change those F tickets to Y at check in, and let those greedy people to deal with the consequences.
Still, CX seriously needs some shake up in its operation. This fiasco just exposes yet another very serious issue that it does not have any safe guard in its system. How can a company of such size, and with such a long history in the industry, be so amateurish?
So in the future there would not be such feeding frenzy on mistake fares.
Chasing mistake fare is one thing, booking sizable number of trips is another. There are many posts about booking 4, 8, 9 trips but the 17 takes the cake.
These greedy people all think they have nothing to lose if the airlines dont honor the tickets, all they lose would be a temporary usage of their credit lines. Some even suggest to book the most expensive Nonrefundable related bookings, so to force CX to pay those expenses according to DOT's rules,
DOT's previous overly generous rules on airlines must honor their publicly available fares have led to the unforseen consequences that is clearly NOT DOT's original intention. That the frenzy of each time a mistake fare is found, fanned by the bloggers, have essentially made DOT rethinks its position, and let the airlines off the hook from some harsh punishment.
I say AF has done it right - change those F tickets to Y at check in, and let those greedy people to deal with the consequences.
Still, CX seriously needs some shake up in its operation. This fiasco just exposes yet another very serious issue that it does not have any safe guard in its system. How can a company of such size, and with such a long history in the industry, be so amateurish?
Exactly. CX could not afford to lose the revenues from the real paying customers. The One Mile at a Time blogger is laughable when saying that given the recent bad publicity of the security breach, CX has incentive to show its best behavior to the public therefore it should honor the tickets... Really? CX needs to show its good behavior to a bunch of mobs who grabbed hundreds and hundreds of tickets in a several hours of feeding frenzy and probably would not ever fly CX pay tickets again? Seriously? 
AF does not need to oversell its F cabin to downgrade those mistake fare tickets. It simply needs to identify those tickets and flag such in the system. AF never noticed the ticket holders about the downgrades. It just did it when the ticketholder check in. That is the best part, the downgrades did not happen until within 24 hours of the departure. If you are interested you can read the old thread how the BAD NEWS being found out - when at OLCI, or in one poster's case, he is a travel agent so he has access to the reservation system and he saw his whole itinerary was downgraded to Y...
AF does not need to oversell its F cabin to downgrade those mistake fare tickets. It simply needs to identify those tickets and flag such in the system. AF never noticed the ticket holders about the downgrades. It just did it when the ticketholder check in. That is the best part, the downgrades did not happen until within 24 hours of the departure. If you are interested you can read the old thread how the BAD NEWS being found out - when at OLCI, or in one poster's case, he is a travel agent so he has access to the reservation system and he saw his whole itinerary was downgraded to Y...
I would be very surprised if they honoured this, because it's F. The inventory lock up for 2019 to real paying customers, not to mention you'll have half the cabin filled with wrong clientele, who may or may not behave appropriately onboard.
If it was J, I think there would be a chance this is honoured. Maybe they'll downgrade the F guys to J with no addtional refund, since, the number of F tickets sold should not be as bad, given there are at most A3 on most flights at time of booking.
If it was J, I think there would be a chance this is honoured. Maybe they'll downgrade the F guys to J with no addtional refund, since, the number of F tickets sold should not be as bad, given there are at most A3 on most flights at time of booking.
pretty impressed. but they have set a bad precedent for themsleves now.... next time it happens if it goes to court this will be a.precedent on behalf of claimant.
to all those DMs... it sends you a clear message... CX cares.about it petty public relations and look good at cost of your geuine business. they value those arbing backpackers than your past xxx Years of loyalty and hard cash... go decide urself if this is airline u want to stick to.
to all those DMs... it sends you a clear message... CX cares.about it petty public relations and look good at cost of your geuine business. they value those arbing backpackers than your past xxx Years of loyalty and hard cash... go decide urself if this is airline u want to stick to.
Just to make abundantly clear, this quote is definitely not fair to those of us displeased at the situation, nor does it represent my views or logic above about why I'm disappointed. Saying something like this is a cliched way to shove the real issues under the mattress.
I've already diversified as much business away from CX as possible. But I am a captive HK flyer. I am loyal to the MPC program and Asia Miles, fly on A fares, and burn upgrade certs CX gives us for flying 33pct more than Diamond (at 1600 CP). And most of my F travel is to N. America, where unlike Emirates to Europe, there isn't a similar F class competitor with the same reach as CX.
Upthread, folks are referring to FIFTY percent of F fares being taken to N. America in the coming year or so.
Given the figures, I think some concern by those of us likely affected is quite relevant, and shouldn't just be dismissed in the manner you're trying to do.
I've already diversified as much business away from CX as possible. But I am a captive HK flyer. I am loyal to the MPC program and Asia Miles, fly on A fares, and burn upgrade certs CX gives us for flying 33pct more than Diamond (at 1600 CP). And most of my F travel is to N. America, where unlike Emirates to Europe, there isn't a similar F class competitor with the same reach as CX.
Upthread, folks are referring to FIFTY percent of F fares being taken to N. America in the coming year or so.
Given the figures, I think some concern by those of us likely affected is quite relevant, and shouldn't just be dismissed in the manner you're trying to do.
Jan 2, 2019, 9:35 am
#109
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: DCA/IAD/WAS
Programs: MAR AMB, WOH Explorist, AA EXP, UA 2P
Posts: 2,138
If routing changes, a current fare is used for calculation causing a large reprice.
Jan 2, 2019, 9:36 am
#110
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 585
///////// /// REPRICING CONDITIONS /////////////
----------------
BEFORE DEPARTURE
----------------
RE-PRICE WITH BELOW OPTIONS AND PROVIDE THE BEST
FARE TO PASSENGER -
1. IF SAME ROUTING AND BOOKING CLASS
USE ANY CX/KA HISTORICAL FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND
NEW TICKET MAY BE EQUAL/HIGHER OR LOWER THAN
THE PREVIOUS TICKET OR
2. IF SAME ROUTING BUT DIFFERENT BOOKING CLASS
USE ANY CX/KA HISTORICAL FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND
NEW TICKET MUST BE EQUAL OR HIGHER THAN
PREVIOUS TICKET OR
3. USE ANY CURRENT CX/KA FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND NEW
TICKET MUST BE EQUAL OR HIGHER VALUE THAN THE
PREVIOUS TICKET.
--------------
AFTER DEPARTURE
--------------
RE-PRICE WITH BELOW OPTIONS AND PROVIDE THE BEST
FARE TO PASSENGER
1. IF SAME ROUTING AND BOOKING CLASS - USE ANY
CX/KA HISTORICAL FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND NEW
TICKET MAY BE EQUAL/HIGHER OR LOWER THAN THE
PREVIOUS TICKET OR
2. USE ANY HISTORICAL CX/KA FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND
NEW TICKET MUST BE EQUAL OR HIGHER VALUE THAN
THE PREVIOUS TICKET
Jan 2, 2019, 9:45 am
#112
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Programs: Global Mercenary
Posts: 193
Probably need to take what you read on blog comments with a grain of salt.
Jan 2, 2019, 9:50 am
#113
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: DCA/IAD/WAS
Programs: MAR AMB, WOH Explorist, AA EXP, UA 2P
Posts: 2,138
someone posted their fare rules (extracted below). i think it will give rise to metaphysical questions about whether the "fare" on which an existing valid ticket is based is a "historical fare" for repricing purposes even though the "fare" was subsequently removed/replaced/updated
///////// /// REPRICING CONDITIONS /////////////
----------------
BEFORE DEPARTURE
----------------
RE-PRICE WITH BELOW OPTIONS AND PROVIDE THE BEST
FARE TO PASSENGER -
1. IF SAME ROUTING AND BOOKING CLASS
USE ANY CX/KA HISTORICAL FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND
NEW TICKET MAY BE EQUAL/HIGHER OR LOWER THAN
THE PREVIOUS TICKET OR
2. IF SAME ROUTING BUT DIFFERENT BOOKING CLASS
USE ANY CX/KA HISTORICAL FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND
NEW TICKET MUST BE EQUAL OR HIGHER THAN
PREVIOUS TICKET OR
3. USE ANY CURRENT CX/KA FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND NEW
TICKET MUST BE EQUAL OR HIGHER VALUE THAN THE
PREVIOUS TICKET.
--------------
AFTER DEPARTURE
--------------
RE-PRICE WITH BELOW OPTIONS AND PROVIDE THE BEST
FARE TO PASSENGER
1. IF SAME ROUTING AND BOOKING CLASS - USE ANY
CX/KA HISTORICAL FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND NEW
TICKET MAY BE EQUAL/HIGHER OR LOWER THAN THE
PREVIOUS TICKET OR
2. USE ANY HISTORICAL CX/KA FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND
NEW TICKET MUST BE EQUAL OR HIGHER VALUE THAN
THE PREVIOUS TICKET
///////// /// REPRICING CONDITIONS /////////////
----------------
BEFORE DEPARTURE
----------------
RE-PRICE WITH BELOW OPTIONS AND PROVIDE THE BEST
FARE TO PASSENGER -
1. IF SAME ROUTING AND BOOKING CLASS
USE ANY CX/KA HISTORICAL FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND
NEW TICKET MAY BE EQUAL/HIGHER OR LOWER THAN
THE PREVIOUS TICKET OR
2. IF SAME ROUTING BUT DIFFERENT BOOKING CLASS
USE ANY CX/KA HISTORICAL FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND
NEW TICKET MUST BE EQUAL OR HIGHER THAN
PREVIOUS TICKET OR
3. USE ANY CURRENT CX/KA FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND NEW
TICKET MUST BE EQUAL OR HIGHER VALUE THAN THE
PREVIOUS TICKET.
--------------
AFTER DEPARTURE
--------------
RE-PRICE WITH BELOW OPTIONS AND PROVIDE THE BEST
FARE TO PASSENGER
1. IF SAME ROUTING AND BOOKING CLASS - USE ANY
CX/KA HISTORICAL FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND NEW
TICKET MAY BE EQUAL/HIGHER OR LOWER THAN THE
PREVIOUS TICKET OR
2. USE ANY HISTORICAL CX/KA FARE FOR RE-PRICE AND
NEW TICKET MUST BE EQUAL OR HIGHER VALUE THAN
THE PREVIOUS TICKET
Jan 2, 2019, 9:58 am
#114
Join Date: Jun 2007
Programs: SQ AA TK
Posts: 1,438
I've flown in J where a bunch of loud and demanding passengers bragging about how awesome it was and the price they paid much to the displeasure of the rest. This "party" continued for quite a bit. I can empathise with those who paid; not full fare but a substantial amount more. Hence my comment, may or may not. It's a risk for CX.
Not praying that they'll be kicked out. Just hypothetically thinking about the possibilities CX could have cooked up, prior to the announcement. I reckon honouring the fare but in J would have still seen quite a number of takers, and made the damage palatable given that there are usually no more than A3 on each flight. That being said I don't know what they will do with J.
Last edited by dfs24; Jan 2, 2019 at 10:01 am Reason: grammer
Jan 2, 2019, 10:27 am
#115
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Singapore
Programs: BA Gold. KrisFlyer Gold
Posts: 732
I agree with QRC3288 that this must indeed be an exaggeration if they have decided to honour the fare. I was just having a play around on EF and it's quite clear that the hit on the inventory is very much route and month dependent. The latter half of the year has less availability than earlier in the year and it looks to me that JFK has been hit particularly hard. For example, there are many days between July and September when you can count the number of F seats now for sale between HKG and JFK (or the reverse) on one hand - out of a total of 24 in each direction. And A-coded first class tickets are not at all easy to come by.
Last edited by crazyanglaisy; Jan 2, 2019 at 10:34 am Reason: spelling
Jan 2, 2019, 1:18 pm
#116
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: London
Posts: 17,007
Does ATPCO even provide a mechanism to obliterate a fare from its authoritative history? I shall peruse the docs to see if they provide any such mechanism to the airlines.
Repricing a fare component after travel has commenced is always done at the historical rate, in the absence of mistakes at least. That rules comes straight out of the IATA ticketing handbook. The only exceptions I know is when carriers have simply refused to touch the ticket again. (Always happy for a learning experience though...)
Jan 2, 2019, 1:26 pm
#117
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Programs: CX, UA, Shangri-La, Hyatt, Starwood
Posts: 7,708
I'm not making an FT argument for argument's sake. On the back of my hand, I spent over 11 full days of my 2018 calendar year on Cathay Pacific and Cathay Dragon aircraft. Much of that in Cathay F, on A fares to North America. I do not have the luxury of flying around to score cheap fares, but I certainly don't hold it against those who do. And we all have our own ways to kill extra time (...I'm guilty of enjoying FT for one).
But I don't give a damn who is flying with me in F, or what they look like, or age, or their whatever. (I prefer quiet, but I've been disturbed in ALL classes before, and there doesn't seem to be a racial / age / economic reason behind the pax I don't get along with). I can't speak for many others, but at least many of my friends also fly Cathay F, and they don't strike me as those types either who care about what the person looks like across the aisle. So I think this argument is a bit of a strawman. Or at least, an FT argument against another FT argument. I just really don't like the insinuation there is some type of racism, or economic discrimination, or age discrimination, or something like that in my argument, hence my sensitivity. Let me make abundantly clear why I don't like this fare deal:
It takes away seats I might buy A fares on, or could use my Diamond certs on. I am shamelessly arguing my corner. No more no less. I suspect many do the same here.
CX made their business decision. I suspect I'll be making mine, maybe to JFK via Tokyo or SQ nonstop to SFO once or twice more than normal in 2019.
Jan 2, 2019, 2:01 pm
#118
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: HKG/HND/OOL
Programs: QF Emerald. SQ Gold.
Posts: 3,170
Jan 2, 2019, 2:10 pm
#119
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 1,470
No, this figure, which I shared above, came from a speculative WhatsApp conversation between a few cabin crew members. It certainly did not come from senior management and should, as I said, be taken with a pinch of salt.
I agree with QRC3288 that this must indeed be an exaggeration if they have decided to honour the fare. I was just having a play around on EF and it's quite clear that the hit on the inventory is very much route and month dependent. The latter half of the year has less availability than earlier in the year and it looks to me that JFK has been hit particularly hard. For example, there are many days between July and September when you can count the number of F seats now for sale between HKG and JFK (or the reverse) on one hand - out of a total of 24 in each direction. And A-coded first class tickets are not at all easy to come by.
I agree with QRC3288 that this must indeed be an exaggeration if they have decided to honour the fare. I was just having a play around on EF and it's quite clear that the hit on the inventory is very much route and month dependent. The latter half of the year has less availability than earlier in the year and it looks to me that JFK has been hit particularly hard. For example, there are many days between July and September when you can count the number of F seats now for sale between HKG and JFK (or the reverse) on one hand - out of a total of 24 in each direction. And A-coded first class tickets are not at all easy to come by.
