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Vietnam to US mistake fare discussion - 2019 Cathay New Year's gift

Vietnam to US mistake fare discussion - 2019 Cathay New Year's gift

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Old Jan 3, 19, 2:39 am
  #151  
sxc
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@navylad I don’t begrudge you taking advantage of the deal. But one thing you probably need to see in context is that CX Diamonds fly A LOT to get there. And to get their upgrade passes they fly even more. Way way more than is required to get emerald in any other oneworld program.

So if CX honouring this will truly affect the ability to use their upgrade vouchers, then I think being upset is a valid sentiment.
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Old Jan 3, 19, 2:49 am
  #152  
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Originally Posted by Cambo View Post
I have some figures for you: On a low yield LH leg (EUR-HKG), I verified on the number of DM's several times, which was over 30%. That's for the number of DM's, let alone the Golds in J. I do leave out the Silver and lower, because it's that easy to reach that level, when flying J. This leg does not have F. For SH destinations, DM percentage in J cabin can go up significantly.

Yes, in the galley, there is a seat overview displayed, which includes name, meal pref and DM status.


Higher qualified loyalty members need to be active, otherwise, their loyalty status will be lost. In your reasoning, you mixup the Booking class with loyalty program.
As such, when F/J inventory gets wiped out for a whole year, that does influence the higher tier FF quite a lot, to put it mildly. Non-active FF don't count in a situation like this.
that is in stark contrast with figures Iím being quoted by those who manage loyalty programmes in the industry, although of course it will no doubt vary by route, day and time and as you have demonstrated the majority are not in the loyalty programme. Overall, I expect MPC accounts for less than 5% of revenue.

Case report (as is your account) is obviously the lowest form of evidence and I would be interested to hear broader figures for CX, although I canít imagine it being too disimilar to the other OW airlines of similar or larger size.

F/J inventory hasnít been Ďwiped outí, weíve seen current A availability drop on these routes currently, but I expect some to return in due course.

It does worry me somewhat that Cathay are displaying personal information to the general public, this is contrary to data protection laws around the world.

Originally Posted by sxc View Post
@navylad I donít begrudge you taking advantage of the deal. But one thing you probably need to see in context is that CX Diamonds fly A LOT to get there. And to get their upgrade passes they fly even more. Way way more than is required to get emerald in any other oneworld program.

So if CX honouring this will truly affect the ability to use their upgrade vouchers, then I think being upset is a valid sentiment.
As I said I do have sympathy for people who feel they are going to be inadvently affected.

With regards to your former point, being GGL in BA, I too fly a lot more than those who just earn Emerald. Loyalty to FF programmes is certainly not required, you can be a member of any OW loyalty programme and credit CXís flights to earn your status, there are many a thread comparing different loyalty programmes in the OW threads.

By way of example, you would need to fly the DAD-HKG-JFK route 6.25 times with BA to get the same number of upgrades that you get flying the same route 4.8 times with CX and with CX these can be booked into revenue classes with the airline, with BA, it needs redemption availability, a space-saver (aka the joker) or going through a TA. I currently have 10 in my folio and Iím unlikely to be able to use most of them.

As I said I have the utmost sympathy for people affected and can indeed understand the emotions expressed in this thread. Perhaps CX can do something to manage this for you peeps- Iíd suggest an ability to role over the upgrades for an additional year as a sensible balanced business suggestion.

Last edited by navylad; Jan 3, 19 at 3:10 am
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Old Jan 3, 19, 2:57 am
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Originally Posted by navylad View Post


that is in stark contrast with figures Iím being quoted by those who manage loyalty programmes in the industry, although of course it will no doubt vary by route, day and time and as you have demonstrated the majority are not in the loyalty programme. Overall, I expect MPC accounts for less than 5% of revenue.

Case report (as is your account) is obviously the lowest form of evidence and I would be interested to hear broader figures for CX, although I canít imagine it being too disimilar to the other OW airlines of similar or larger size.

F/J inventory hasnít been Ďwiped outí, weíve seen current A availability drop on these routes currently, but I expect some to return in due course.

It does worry me somewhat that Cathay are displaying personal information to the general public, this is contrary to data protection laws around the world.


Just to clarify, my statement regarding the number of DM's is about J cabin. I can understand the lower cabins do have significantly less DM's.
And yes, I was very surprised to notice this high amount of DM's on this leg (I don't fly other HKG-EU legs though).

It's not so much "displaying to general public", you have to sneak into the galley, know what scribbles to look for and what the scribbles tell as well be able to have a look at that, before being asked "Can I help you ?"
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Old Jan 3, 19, 3:00 am
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Very cool if CX will honor these - congrats to whoever jumped on it!
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Old Jan 3, 19, 3:01 am
  #155  
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Originally Posted by oneworld82 View Post
Very cool if CX will honor these - congrats to whoever jumped on it!
they already did
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Old Jan 3, 19, 3:54 am
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Originally Posted by percysmith View Post
Stop buyers of the fare from rebooking and making their tickets actually flyable https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/30601996-post768.html

But I'm not sure how long they can keep this up.
What to do to re-release A seats for sale without allowing rebooking? Call them A+?
I'm not just talking about the constraint that happened from the DAD/HAN-USA married segment, but more addressing the A availability on the local leg in general. I believe that once the revenue protection mechanism softens, A class will once again be opened to be more in line with F
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Old Jan 3, 19, 3:54 am
  #157  
 
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Originally Posted by sxc View Post
So if CX honouring this will truly affect the ability to use their upgrade vouchers, then I think being upset is a valid sentiment.
Your statement (respectfully) only holds true (if at all) in the event that the volume of actual tickets sold drives a shift in the ratio of availability of inventory of varying categories. I dare say that none of us has any idea whether this is indeed the case or not.

In any case, anyone daft enough to place any faith in loyalty being returned by any airline these days is living in a dream world (no matter how ethically just or not).

Regardless, such maters are always at the airline's discretion so loyalty member harbouring expectation is in dream world. Were it was not so of course.
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Old Jan 3, 19, 4:03 am
  #158  
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Originally Posted by Platy View Post
Your statement (respectfully) only holds true (if at all) in the event that the volume of actual tickets sold drives a shift in the ratio of availability of inventory of varying categories. I dare say that none of us has any idea whether this is indeed the case or not.

In any case, anyone daft enough to place any faith in loyalty being returned by any airline these days is living in a dream world (no matter how ethically just or not).

Regardless, such maters are always at the airline's discretion so loyalty member harbouring expectation is in dream world. Were it was not so of course.
At this point A class has been affected negatively. If this holds then yes this event has affected the ability of high spending members to use their benefits.
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Old Jan 3, 19, 4:09 am
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Originally Posted by QRC3288 View Post
I definitely don't extend the argument to other forms of discounting like ID, etc, and I think that's disingenuous. Why? Because those types of ticketing are well planned for. It is regular.

But, still I see this as another mark where mostly overseas travelers benefit, at the expense of those (few) of us locals who pay the price.
Excellent post (IMHO).

A couple of points for consideration:

1) Any competent organisation maintains a risk management plan - an error in entering a fare categorisation would feature in such (it happens and has high impact): this immediately negates your argument that a "mistake" fare is "not planned for".

2) Parochialism is in fact a form a discrimination - the very attribute you deny. We all have our local issue - here in Australia QF takes the proverbial, for example.

It's taken many years to realise that any sense of loyalty to an airline in the modern world is a one way relationship - take by the airline.

OK, shift to SQ, but excellent as they are, they just gave us KrisFlyer members a 3 week notice of a devaluation 0n top of a fairly recent devaluation.

Sure, look after your own best interests, but perhaps a little "ironic" to cite others for doing likewise.

That said it would be unfortunate if CX failed to find some sort of balance so we all end up with a favourable position!

And , as agreed, folk still have to go to Vietnam, so overseas customers are immediately disadvantaged (they can't just take a USD100 JQ Pacific fare from HKG to HAN for example). Meanwhile, low fares are "normal' from origins as MLE and CMB, MRU (if that still holds these days).....

PS CNS based and grateful for the continued support that CX gives our community and much enjoy our trips to HKG and the people therein. Happy for our extra weekend in HKG, M Bar, Mott ,etc....
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Last edited by Platy; Jan 3, 19 at 4:16 am
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Old Jan 3, 19, 4:35 am
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Originally Posted by sxc View Post

At this point A class has been affected negatively. If this holds then yes this event has affected the ability of high spending members to use their benefits.
Hmmm....I made a contract with the airline which cited a "guaranteed" airfare.

"High spending members" (whatever that is suppose to mean) have no such guarantee with regard to their loyalty benefits, since their benefits are subject to availability, which can be manipulated by the airline for any number of factors and a decision making process, which are are NEVER transparent to the loyal member. As far as I can tell as the member of numerous FF schemes, the reward seat inventory in CX is one of the worst as a default position. You know this.

Unless you're on the CX Board / Executive you'll never know the real position!

So don't denigrate those of us that scored (comments about "gnashing teeth" for example) because you expected something you were never entitled to only get sucked in by.

There sure is some bad and biased attitude on this part of FT from inappropriate sources. Nasty stuff.
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Old Jan 3, 19, 4:49 am
  #161  
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For the record I donít begrudge anyone who has taken advantage of this deal. I have expressed that before. I wish I had been able to get one of these tickets. I was asleep.

And I have no money in this game - Iím not a CX diamond. Iím not even a CX status holder anymore. I have just been factually discussing the effect of this event on various parts of the CX community who are represented in this forum.
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Old Jan 3, 19, 5:13 am
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Originally Posted by navylad View Post


By way of example, you would need to fly the DAD-HKG-JFK route 6.25 times with BA to get the same number of upgrades that you get flying the same route 4.8 times with CX and with CX these can be booked into revenue classes with the airline, with BA, it needs redemption availability, a space-saver (aka the joker) or going through a TA. I currently have 10 in my folio and Iím unlikely to be able to use most of them.
While I agree with some of your points, data can often be presented in ways to suit either side of an argument.

Not sure of my math, but a quick look suggests that an EC Gold member in discount F on BA needs 7.14 oneway LHR-HKG (or vv) flights to renew Gold, and get some ~21k + 100% bonus Avios each way.
An MPC DM in discount F on CX needs 8.57 oneway HKG-JFK (~33% longer a sector) to renew DM, earning some 15k Asiamiles on each flight. HKG-LHR? Just 9.6..
Pretty sure things get starker yet if one starts using $ spend.

Apples & oranges, I agree, but doesnít change what atleast many hold to be true- CX status is tough, if not the toughest in oneworld. Else weíd have more discussions re CX status/miles on other oneworld carrierís chatgroups/boards- like we have for aadvantage and Avios here, or more for burning Asiamiles on BA/AA F, than for burning those currencies on CX. And given the higher hurdle, itís but natural for CX MPC members to have higher expectations. (And I agree that what suits one person might not suit the other..and if A availability does go away, 1600CP DMs should be reassessing things).
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Old Jan 3, 19, 5:22 am
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Originally Posted by sxc View Post
For the record I donít begrudge anyone who has taken advantage of this deal. I have expressed that before. I wish I had been able to get one of these tickets. I was asleep.

And I have no money in this game - Iím not a CX diamond. Iím not even a CX status holder anymore. I have just been factually discussing the effect of this event on various parts of the CX community who are represented in this forum.
I think that we, the MPC members do need this discussion, so, thanks for keeping it calm!
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Old Jan 3, 19, 6:06 am
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Originally Posted by QRC3288 View Post
I believe folks in Hong Kong - those of us who live here, work here, and must fly Cathay Pacific at least sometimes - are genuine stakeholders in Cathay Pacific. We live here for the most part, neighbors and friends are pilots, management and flight attendants, and some of us are genuine captives to fly CX a lot. The captive argument is a real one: we loyally contribute to CX, in part because we must(without seriously inconveniencing ourselves). Hell I have diversified a lot of business to JAL, Emirates and SQ mostly, but I still must fly CX to North America in particur if I am being honest with myself and my time.
Willingly being captive to CX's pricing strategy doesn't mean you're more genuine a customer to CX. I'm sorry but there are travellers based outside of HKG who also contribute a great deal to CX's bottom line and it's insulting to imply that their stake in CX is somehow less genuine.

Originally Posted by QRC3288 View Post
But, still I see this as another mark where mostly overseas travelers benefit, at the expense of those (few) of us locals who pay the price. Again.
I fail to see the logic behind "overseas travelers" being made scapegoats. HKG-based travellers were not barred from buying this fare. If anything their proximity from HAN/DAD/SGN, places them at a much greater advantage over most who cashed in on this opportunity.

Being made to pay more to fly CX as a "local" is hardly the fault of "overseas" people. CX knows they can get away with charging the local market more for flying less because they can.

Originally Posted by QRC3288 View Post
The consequences would be far more apparent if CX accidentally sold half a million economy tickets to overseas travels by mistske for $10 instead of $1000 (instead of mucking up premium classes as they did), since then a lot of HK people legitimately wouldn't be able to fly to see family overseas, and it would be a helluva ruckus.
I really wonder how many family reunions are ruined if HKers can't get a seat on CX Y and refuse to fly on the many other airlines that serve HKG.
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Old Jan 3, 19, 6:49 am
  #165  
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Originally Posted by jagmeets View Post


While I agree with some of your points, data can often be presented in ways to suit either side of an argument.

Not sure of my math, but a quick look suggests that an EC Gold member in discount F on BA needs 7.14 oneway LHR-HKG (or vv) flights to renew Gold, and get some ~21k + 100% bonus Avios each way.
An MPC DM in discount F on CX needs 8.57 oneway HKG-JFK (~33% longer a sector) to renew DM, earning some 15k Asiamiles on each flight. HKG-LHR? Just 9.6..
Pretty sure things get starker yet if one starts using $ spend.

Apples & oranges, I agree, but doesnít change what atleast many hold to be true- CX status is tough, if not the toughest in oneworld. Else weíd have more discussions re CX status/miles on other oneworld carrierís chatgroups/boards- like we have for aadvantage and Avios here, or more for burning Asiamiles on BA/AA F, than for burning those currencies on CX. And given the higher hurdle, itís but natural for CX MPC members to have higher expectations. (And I agree that what suits one person might not suit the other..and if A availability does go away, 1600CP DMs should be reassessing things).
i think we are in broad agreement there, BA gold doesnít get you upgrades per sey which is the benefit which is being discussed but you are of course right, there will be routes where one loyalty group wins in comparison to the other and vice-cersa, the point I was countering though is that CXís loyal customers work harder to get their upgrades, sorry I donít buy that one.
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