Non revs taking up the front of the plane?

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Old Nov 25, 18, 12:26 pm
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Non revs taking up the front of the plane?

I was recently on a flight from HKG to YVR and noticed a few disruptive non-revs. It was obvious only because of the CX lanyard and ID badges they were wearing. These people weren't disruptive enough to warrant a complaint just lacking courtesy that most airlines demand from their non-rev flyers, like constantly going to grab stuff from their bags, leaping over people to go to the lavs every few hours, .... that annoying passengers do.

Anyways, I started having a gab with the SP and I mentioned that Y was pretty empty on this flight. She said Y was empty but J and PEY were packed but mostly with non-revs. That got me thinking, on one hand, I feel like they should be upgrading elites (the people who pay the bills) up to the front when there's space and let the non-revs duke it out for the remaining seats. On the other hand, it's probably not a bad idea to treat staff well since they are the face of the company. I only know that the DMs didn't get upgraded because there was a gent beside me who is a DM+ and was still slumming it in Y. They at least told him there's an empty row in the back if he wanted to sleep.

Clearly the premium cabins that CX "protects" isn't really that protected when a large majority of the people there are non-revs during slow season. Thoughts? Give the staff perks like flying in premium cabins or treat elites a little bit better?

Last edited by LoveHateRelationship; Nov 25, 18 at 12:45 pm
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Old Nov 25, 18, 1:43 pm
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Originally Posted by LoveHateRelationship View Post
like constantly going to grab stuff from their bags, leaping over people to go to the lavs every few hours, .... that annoying passengers do.
are you seriously having problems with people going to the toilet? they are not under arrest you know.
The rule book say behave like a normal pax and not add extra pressure to operating crew. They sound like they're behaving like normal pax.

Originally Posted by LoveHateRelationship View Post
Anyways, I started having a gab with the SP and I mentioned that Y was pretty empty on this flight. She said Y was empty but J and PEY were packed but mostly with non-revs.
The SP has no business discussing that with any passengers

CX is not an American carrier, you should know how upgrades work by now.

The ID pax are totally within their rights of their contract to pay for a JCL ID tickets if space permitted, which are more expensive than a YCL ID tix. Why should CX upgrade pax for free to fill up JCL and make staff who are within their right, and are willing and able to pay for a JCL ID tix sit in YCL instead? The upgraded pax will still do the unspeakable such as going to toilets and opening overhead bins. Are you suggesting because they would be serving you should they be in uniforms hence they should go back to where they belong?

ID pax aren't all crew, they can be anyone from CX, office staff, engineering, wherever. Please stop with the 'put people back where they belong' attitude and just mind your own business. Aircraft is a mode of transport, not a naval warship with your self established hierarchy.
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Old Nov 25, 18, 1:50 pm
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Originally Posted by LoveHateRelationship View Post
I was recently on a flight from HKG to YVR and noticed a few disruptive non-revs. It was obvious only because of the CX lanyard and ID badges they were wearing. These people weren't disruptive enough to warrant a complaint just lacking courtesy that most airlines demand from their non-rev flyers, like constantly going to grab stuff from their bags, leaping over people to go to the lavs every few hours, .... that annoying passengers do.

Anyways, I started having a gab with the SP and I mentioned that Y was pretty empty on this flight. She said Y was empty but J and PEY were packed but mostly with non-revs. That got me thinking, on one hand, I feel like they should be upgrading elites (the people who pay the bills) up to the front when there's space and let the non-revs duke it out for the remaining seats. On the other hand, it's probably not a bad idea to treat staff well since they are the face of the company. I only know that the DMs didn't get upgraded because there was a gent beside me who is a DM+ and was still slumming it in Y. They at least told him there's an empty row in the back if he wanted to sleep.

Clearly the premium cabins that CX "protects" isn't really that protected when a large majority of the people there are non-revs during slow season. Thoughts? Give the staff perks like flying in premium cabins or treat elites a little bit better?
As long as they aren't trying to share my seat, I could care less.
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Old Nov 25, 18, 2:02 pm
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Since they are wearing ID badges it seems like they might be on duty travel, depending on their position and nature of duty they might be flying in premium cabin as a standard procedure (ie they are assigned to fly in premium cabin). One example would be crew deadheading to operate flights, I think captains deadheading are put to F if it's available, for example so it isn't exactly always an upgrade.

Staff not flying on duty but using ID tickets are also available in premium cabins, so they can pay for ID tickets in PEY/J and fly in those cabins. On the other hand I don't think they can be upgraded if they are flying with ID tickets for Y and Y isn't full.

In short rest assured that 99% of the time staff flying in that cabin are based on their policy (duty travel) or ticket (ID tickets in premium cabin). In fact CX ground staff at HKG are constantly being mentioned by other staff to be very mean when serving their colleagues. This being said, there is no reason for them to be disruptive and if you do think that they are beyond acceptable level such as being very loud, you can talk to the operating crew. The crew would report back to the company if they think the ID pax violate the policy. However without knowing how many is that every few hours I don't quite think they are being disruptive. I mean it's reasonable for any pax to stretch their legs or visit washroom or having access to their bags etc once a while on a long haul flight.
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Old Nov 25, 18, 2:06 pm
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Why would CX upgrade anyone if there is no operation need? That pretty go with all asian airlines. As a matter fact, that's how CX protects the premium cabin. No free upgrade.
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Old Nov 25, 18, 2:09 pm
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Not really going to dignify the personal attacks with an answer since I posted this to have a discussion like rational adults about people's thoughts on the matter and not resort to child like mud slinging.

I will say though that my complaint isn't other pax going to the lav or getting stuff from the overhead but it's doing it every 5 minutes and annoying the person in the aisle seat.

I'm personally indifferent to the matter but I know that there are people on both sides on the fence and it's interesting to hear their perspectives.

Also why is it that in 2018 we still have a swear filter?
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Old Nov 25, 18, 2:17 pm
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Originally Posted by LoveHateRelationship View Post
Not really going to dignify the personal attacks with an answer since I posted this to have a discussion like rational adults about people's thoughts on the matter and not resort to child like mud slinging.

I will say though that my complaint isn't other pax going to the lav or getting stuff from the overhead but it's doing it every 5 minutes and annoying the person in the aisle seat.

I'm personally indifferent to the matter but I know that there are people on both sides on the fence and it's interesting to hear their perspectives.

Also why is it that in 2018 we still have a swear filter?
Aren't all seats "aisle seats"?
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Old Nov 25, 18, 2:25 pm
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Originally Posted by moondog View Post
Aren't all seats "aisle seats"?
This was in PEY
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Old Nov 25, 18, 3:09 pm
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Originally Posted by patrickw View Post
In short rest assured that 99% of the time staff flying in that cabin are based on their policy (duty travel) or ticket (ID tickets in premium cabin). In fact CX ground staff at HKG are constantly being mentioned by other staff to be very mean when serving their colleagues. This being said, there is no reason for them to be disruptive and if you do think that they are beyond acceptable level such as being very loud, you can talk to the operating crew. The crew would report back to the company if they think the ID pax violate the policy. However without knowing how many is that every few hours I don't quite think they are being disruptive. I mean it's reasonable for any pax to stretch their legs or visit washroom or having access to their bags etc once a while on a long haul flight.
It was really just watching her get up every few minutes, hopping over the lady in the aisle, grab something then hop back in. 30 seconds later, she decides she wants to go to the lav, hop over the lady again then hop across the center rows come back and go back in her seat. Then another 30 seconds goes by and she decided that she forgot something in her bag and decides to hop over the lady again grab her stuff. This went on for long enough for the lady to get quite annoyed giving her the ... shrug. Her attire was pretty sloppy as well, definitely not the smart casual or the business attire my buddy pass tells me I need to wear.

Originally Posted by neuro0 View Post
Why would CX upgrade anyone if there is no operation need? That pretty go with all asian airlines. As a matter fact, that's how CX protects the premium cabin. No free upgrade.
What this signals to me is that in CX's eyes there's no value in the premium cabins since they are happy to give it away for free quite literally. Just the perception of value is what it is.

edit: seriously?!?! the what the f abbreviation is picked up by the swear filter?!?! Is this place run by puritan elementary school teachers???
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Old Nov 25, 18, 4:11 pm
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A number of mistaken assumptions here.

First, they are not on ID (what the OP is calling, somewhat incorrectly, "non rev"). The fact they had identification badges mean they were on duty travel.

Personally, this doesn't sound bad to me. Essentially one of the crew who got up a lot and had a middle seat. Right?

Second, even if they were on ID benefits travel, instead of duty travel as it seems, the assumption they were op upped due to empty seats is not right....staff pay for class of service (if they were on ID benefits travel, which these crew clearly weren't). To fly J is considerably more than Y class. ID staff do have a position on the op-up priority list, but it is somewhere behind Diamonds. Anyway, op ups weren't happening here.

Staff on duty travel are supposed to fly J, fyi, unless J is full. Then they overflow to PEY. And finally, Y. All space available. This is per their contract, and for me - my opinion as a fellow traveler - definitely what I want. Duty travel as I understand it can be God Awful. Think fly to SFO working, come back 2 hours later as a pax, in an extreme example. Irrops, sick staff, and other unplanned issues can cause a lot of duty travel needs, although ther issues can trigger it.

​​​​​​One final assumption is wrong here, even though it's not applicable because of the duty travel. To use the term "non rev" for CX pax is misleading and not actually correct. Unlike some US airline, where staff are truly non-revs paying tax and portion of fees only, CX charges a percentage of the full fare to its staff. To give perspective, before the recent rate changes, a FA flying on standard ID benefits would pay just under $300 USD for a J class ticket HKG to LAX. Delta Airlines would charge around $50 for a similarly length itinerary ATL-HND *regardless of class of service flown*, so if you're a non rev flying J you pay the same as non rev in Y. On CX, there's a $250 difference here vs Delta if comping J class! It's not unsubstantial. CX ID prices in some cases were actually not far off what Alaska reimburses CX for award tix. Alaska Tix are "revenue" tix. But anyway, this paragraph isn't applicable because the staff have CX badges, so they're clearly on duty travel.
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Old Nov 25, 18, 4:24 pm
  #11  
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If you are on CX F and pay for F -- besides EK, this on of the best value you get for your money.
Yes, they ask you sometimes "We do have "dine one on demand" but better tell us now what you want or it will be served in the cockpit".
Yes, there are two lavs in the front of a 777, one is big and has linen towels, and one is small and has nothing. It might be human, but all 20 flight attendants are sure to only use the "real" F lav, which means F pax can only use the other one. There is no way to solve this, besides as EK does: provide so many F lavs that even all of the crew can use it and so much caviar that that the pilots are fine. No bashing, this is probably just the only way to do it.
Flying CX since 15 years, only in F, and always paid for. And not eating any caviar.
I flew F in LH and SQ before and the flight attendants all seemed to be the superstars, while the pax are a disturbance. Clearly CX protects their premium cabins much better.
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Old Nov 25, 18, 4:36 pm
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Originally Posted by QRC3288 View Post
A number of mistaken assumptions here.

First, they are not on ID (what the OP is calling, somewhat incorrectly, "non rev"). The fact they had identification badges mean they were on duty travel.

Personally, this doesn't sound bad to me. Essentially one of the crew who got up a lot and had a middle seat. Right?

Second, even if they were on ID benefits travel, instead of duty travel as it seems, the assumption they were op upped due to empty seats is not right....staff pay for class of service (if they were on ID benefits travel, which these crew clearly weren't). To fly J is considerably more than Y class. ID staff do have a position on the op-up priority list, but it is somewhere behind Diamonds. Anyway, op ups weren't happening here.

Staff on duty travel are supposed to fly J, fyi, unless J is full. Then they overflow to PEY. And finally, Y. All space available. This is per their contract, and for me - my opinion as a fellow traveler - definitely what I want. Duty travel as I understand it can be God Awful. Think fly to SFO working, come back 2 hours later as a pax, in an extreme example. Irrops, sick staff, and other unplanned issues can cause a lot of duty travel needs, although ther issues can trigger it.

​​​​​​One final assumption is wrong here, even though it's not applicable because of the duty travel. To use the term "non rev" for CX pax is misleading and not actually correct. Unlike some US airline, where staff are truly non-revs paying tax and portion of fees only, CX charges a percentage of the full fare to its staff. To give perspective, before the recent rate changes, a FA flying on standard ID benefits would pay just under $300 USD for a J class ticket HKG to LAX. Delta Airlines would charge around $50 for a similarly length itinerary ATL-HND *regardless of class of service flown*, so if you're a non rev flying J you pay the same as non rev in Y. On CX, there's a $250 difference here vs Delta if comping J class! It's not unsubstantial. CX ID prices in some cases were actually not far off what Alaska reimburses CX for award tix. Alaska Tix are "revenue" tix. But anyway, this paragraph isn't applicable because the staff have CX badges, so they're clearly on duty travel.
I appreciate the clarification. Didn't realize that ID travel and non-rev travel were not the same thing. I always assumed staff travel with CX was like staff travel in the US where you just pay taxes. They're very specific about keeping a low profile, keeping out of the way, and dressing appropriately when flying non-rev.

I appreciate that duty travel sucks, especially since it would seem that this lady was doing duty travel from HKG-YVR. This wasn't some 2 hour reposition flight. I probably wouldn't care about anything if my company said I needed to fly 12 hours to go to work only to do more flying for work.
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Old Nov 25, 18, 5:22 pm
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Originally Posted by Uli View Post
If you are on CX F and pay for F -- besides EK, this on of the best value you get for your money.
Yes, they ask you sometimes "We do have "dine one on demand" but better tell us now what you want or it will be served in the cockpit".
Yes, there are two lavs in the front of a 777, one is big and has linen towels, and one is small and has nothing. It might be human, but all 20 flight attendants are sure to only use the "real" F lav, which means F pax can only use the other one. There is no way to solve this, besides as EK does: provide so many F lavs that even all of the crew can use it and so much caviar that that the pilots are fine. No bashing, this is probably just the only way to do it.
Flying CX since 15 years, only in F, and always paid for. And not eating any caviar.
I flew F in LH and SQ before and the flight attendants all seemed to be the superstars, while the pax are a disturbance. Clearly CX protects their premium cabins much better.
Spot on.

While I've yet to experience EK F, when it comes to paid F, CX would be my first choice, and then, maybe, JL. My experiences with LH/SQ have been, at best, adequate, and I'm being generous here. I'm still puzzled on how SQ wins all these awards and why all the bloggers go gaga over LH/SQ F.
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Old Nov 25, 18, 5:30 pm
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Originally Posted by LoveHateRelationship View Post
Also why is it that in 2018 we still have a swear filter?
It's called decency.
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Old Nov 25, 18, 5:32 pm
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Originally Posted by LoveHateRelationship View Post
Not really going to dignify the personal attacks with an answer since I posted this to have a discussion like rational adults about people's thoughts on the matter and not resort to child like mud slinging.

I will say though that my complaint isn't other pax going to the lav or getting stuff from the overhead but it's doing it every 5 minutes and annoying the person in the aisle seat.

I'm personally indifferent to the matter but I know that there are people on both sides on the fence and it's interesting to hear their perspectives.

Also why is it that in 2018 we still have a swear filter?
Originally Posted by LoveHateRelationship View Post
It was really just watching her get up every few minutes, hopping over the lady in the aisle, grab something then hop back in. 30 seconds later, she decides she wants to go to the lav, hop over the lady again then hop across the center rows come back and go back in her seat. Then another 30 seconds goes by and she decided that she forgot something in her bag and decides to hop over the lady again grab her stuff. This went on for long enough for the lady to get quite annoyed giving her the ... shrug. Her attire was pretty sloppy as well, definitely not the smart casual or the business attire my buddy pass tells me I need to wear.



What this signals to me is that in CX's eyes there's no value in the premium cabins since they are happy to give it away for free quite literally. Just the perception of value is what it is.

edit: seriously?!?! the what the f abbreviation is picked up by the swear filter?!?! Is this place run by puritan elementary school teachers???
Hmm, wonder what the .... that's all about.
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