A333 on HKG-CAN! Isn't it insane?!

Old Oct 30, 18, 4:09 am
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Originally Posted by blandy62 View Post
No that would not be a bit of extra infrastructure, That would be major infrastructure to bring the High speed train to airport. The current track on the Tung Chung/Airport line, can't be used for the high speed train. So that would probably require to build a complete underground extension from the newly built high speed track.
the problem with the current infrastructure is because china in late 1980s-1990s complained so much about the brits overspending. so blame it on the chinese. and for the train, do you know how much social cost it had brought to hong kong? 1) people who pollutes hong kong with their behaviour 2) the lack of QC of the construction is destructing all the nearby buildings 3) the parts of china that connects to hong kong has nothing for hkers to go for. ie, the push is minimal, the pull is low quality.

and surely when china tries to conenct the HSR to HK it will just be a logistical nightmare, like a I-I transit in peking.

as for HSR: it also kills off commerce in cities like lyon
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Old Oct 30, 18, 4:44 am
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Originally Posted by blandy62 View Post
No that would not be a bit of extra infrastructure, That would be major infrastructure to bring the High speed train to airport. The current track on the Tung Chung/Airport line, can't be used for the high speed train. So that would probably require to build a complete underground extension from the newly built high speed track.
The airport express is built to the same track gauge as the high speed railways. So if a chord were build and appropriate trains obtained through running would be possible.
maybe one day, when China has abolished internal borders...
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Old Oct 30, 18, 5:16 am
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Originally Posted by KayVeeBee View Post


The airport express is built to the same track gauge as the high speed railways. So if a chord were build and appropriate trains obtained through running would be possible.
maybe one day, when China has abolished internal borders...


There's 3mm gauge difference. And signaling.
It is not about border control; rather it's the capacity of the AEL tracks, which now with a near-cap frequency of AEL/10 mins + Tung Chung Line/5 mins it's already crowded.
Maybe some of you are used to European train standards (I understand what you mean when I visited ZRH) but in Hong Kong all except the HSR are urban metro lines with a different mode of operation, for a reason.

Anyway it is not what airlines could (would) invest on. For DB's Rail and Fly, I guess it works only because the infrastructure is already there. Same as ferries where codeshares are placed after the airport has run the pier for some time.
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Old Oct 30, 18, 5:26 am
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Originally Posted by SKT-DK View Post
Not exactly a statistically representative sample to question CX/KA's rationale behind their aircraft deployments, is it...? - two flights...

This whole thread is started on a nonsense post by someone who fails to recognise the concept of supply and demand - or rather, demand dictating the deployment of wide-body aircraft (supply) on the route.
The comparison between this and routes in rural Finland just makes it outright laughable..
Whether I catch the 2 flights, or 2000 flights, or even 0 flights, is irrelevant, the fact is that those flights just could not connect to CX flights to Australia well at all.

Like I said, CAN catchment has like 14 million people or more, if CX/KA wants they can bring another 2 A330s for another 2 rotations and they would probably still make money either by connecting pax or cargo. I don't agree with OP of turboprop due to population, but lower cost KA A320s on late morning and afternoon rotations should do the trick.

Now probably the only thing that stops it is slot constraints. However, that doesn't stop CX trying out all these flights to new cities in Europe and then cancelling them. They may as well use those slots to connect more Guangdong traffic to the rest of CX network to make their overall CX network more profitable.
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Old Oct 30, 18, 5:35 am
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Originally Posted by watery View Post
There's 3mm gauge difference. And signaling.
It is not about border control; rather it's the capacity of the AEL tracks, which now with a near-cap frequency of AEL/10 mins + Tung Chung Line/5 mins it's already crowded.
Maybe some of you are used to European train standards (I understand what you mean when I visited ZRH) but in Hong Kong all except the HSR are urban metro lines with a different mode of operation, for a reason.

Anyway it is not what airlines could (would) invest on. For DB's Rail and Fly, I guess it works only because the infrastructure is already there. Same as ferries where codeshares are placed after the airport has run the pier for some time.
Well when the East Lantau Island Land Reclamation is completed (in say 2030 or later), they can then build a second track from HKG to connect directly to Hong Kong Island via East Lantau, but that would be decade away.
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Old Oct 30, 18, 6:03 am
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Originally Posted by kamchatsky View Post
Whether I catch the 2 flights, or 2000 flights, or even 0 flights, is irrelevant, the fact is that those flights just could not connect to CX flights to Australia well at all.

Like I said, CAN catchment has like 14 million people or more, if CX/KA wants they can bring another 2 A330s for another 2 rotations and they would probably still make money either by connecting pax or cargo. I don't agree with OP of turboprop due to population, but lower cost KA A320s on late morning and afternoon rotations should do the trick.

Now probably the only thing that stops it is slot constraints. However, that doesn't stop CX trying out all these flights to new cities in Europe and then cancelling them. They may as well use those slots to connect more Guangdong traffic to the rest of CX network to make their overall CX network more profitable.
I acknowledge the issue of not connecting to Australia flights but to connect to more Guangdong traffic may not improve profit that much because ex-CAN is often cheaper than ex-HKG, if the long haul demand is already strong.
Also to fly new destinations may enable new market whereas increase frequency is to farm an old market. Though a third service mid-day may be good.
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Old Oct 30, 18, 8:15 am
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Originally Posted by kamchatsky View Post
Well when the East Lantau Island Land Reclamation is completed (in say 2030 or later), they can then build a second track from HKG to connect directly to Hong Kong Island via East Lantau, but that would be decade away.
thats disgusting.
hope the project wont get enough funding, china style.
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Old Oct 30, 18, 9:42 am
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6 of the Top 10 busiest international air routes by OD pax volume involves HKG. No.1 of which is HKG-TPE which sees 15-17 daily flights year round operated by CX alone. In case one is not aware of, the smallest aircraft which CX operates is an A333. FTers have very kindly provided the details of CX/KA fleet in another thread. Why would the OP be surprised to see a random KA route operated by an A333???

Concerning the HSR, I often find it inappropriate to compare the journey time of HSR and KA flights between Guangzhou and HK. It is just a marketing gimmick for the gov and rail company to promote to the public that the High Speed Rail is very fast. Mysteriously, somebody would end up with a less than reasonable conclusion that HSR is faster than a plane, KA is going out of business bla bla bla...........

Regarding the traffic between Guangzhou and Hong Kong, I doubt if there is actually any OD pax travelling on KA between HKG and CAN when KA themselves can't be bothered to price this OD. Only Full Y and Full J fares are available for sale. I would be surprised if anything less than 99.9% of pax onboard KA781/2 and KA786/9 are transfer pax. It is simply nonsense IMO to conclude KA CAN flights will be gone coz pax would all go to HSR. This would happen when CAN gets more international flights and does't need KA feeder. But for now, WHO would go thru HKG immigration, pick up their luggage if any, get on Airport express and walk to the HSR station which requires you to be there 40 or so min before the train departs to get a ticket/check luggage if the pax does't want to get his/her luggage when he/she arrives because of idiotic Chinese policy and go thru immigration again instead of simply transferring in HKG airport to KA782/786 after getting off a flight?? Especially when one takes into account that the HSR station in Guangzhou isn't any closer to Guangzhou city center than CAN airport.

It is even more laughable when some says KA HKG - PVG/PEK flights will suffer from HSR competition because KA is more expensive. KA is almost always more expensive than MU/CA/HX competing on the same route in Y and J. Why would KA suffer because of price issue? The one daily HSR trains which take ages to travel between Shanghai / Beijing and HK is only gonna attract people who is afraid of airplanes, friends of Kim Jong Un probably........ It is no match for CX/KA in terms of frequency, speed and perhaps comfort for F/J pax. Even the HK Chief Executive said she would not take HSR to Beijing because of her tight schedule.

Edit: please dont go to KE/OZ forum and open a new thread " Over 100 flights per day between GMP-CJU! isn't it insane?"
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Last edited by marcommm; Oct 30, 18 at 9:51 am
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Old Oct 30, 18, 10:55 am
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Very well said marcommm. I hope your post will put this issue to rest.
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Old Oct 30, 18, 1:09 pm
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Originally Posted by kaka View Post
as for HSR: it also kills off commerce in cities like lyon
Fortunately HSR GROWS commerce in second and third tier Chinese cities.
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Old Oct 30, 18, 7:48 pm
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Originally Posted by KayVeeBee View Post


The airport express is built to the same track gauge as the high speed railways. So if a chord were build and appropriate trains obtained through running would be possible.
maybe one day, when China has abolished internal borders...
No the Tung Chung line and airport express use near standard gauge, it is 3mm shorter. Totally out of topic, but anybody knows why some lines in Hk use near standard gauges while other are standard gauge?
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Old Oct 30, 18, 7:54 pm
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Originally Posted by kaka View Post

and surely when china tries to conenct the HSR to HK it will just be a logistical nightmare, like a I-I transit in peking.

as for HSR: it also kills off commerce in cities like lyon
well at least for the first time in history, HK has a real dedicate rail link to the outside. I understand it might be of no use for you but for a lot of people, this is huge step forwards.

As for the TGV killing commerce in Lyon, I am not so sure what you are trying to say. Actually more and more people working in Paris, live in those cities connected by TGV because of the lower living cost and the fast transport.

Last edited by blandy62; Oct 30, 18 at 8:17 pm
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Old Oct 30, 18, 8:05 pm
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[QUOTE=marcommm;30372826]

Concerning the HSR, I often find it inappropriate to compare the journey time of HSR and KA flights between Guangzhou and HK. It is just a marketing gimmick for the gov and rail company to promote to the public that the High Speed Rail is very fast. Mysteriously, somebody would end up with a less than reasonable conclusion that HSR is faster than a plane, KA is going out of business bla bla bla...........

It is even more laughable when some says KA HKG - PVG/PEK flights will suffer from HSR competition because KA is more expensive.
[QUOTE]

Your post summarize everything. High Speed train give a real benefit on short distance (may be <1000KM), because they bring you from city center to city center without having to travel to/from the airport, arrive at least 1 hour before, wait for your luggage... On longer distances that benefit disappear. But of course KA need to have those flights to CAN to feed their network. Of course everybody knows that the HSR will not bring a major competition to plane travel on fights to PVG/PEK. It doesn't make sense unless you want to stop in between for example.

Frankly you have the same situation in other countries having high speed train. I don't think much people take the plane these days in France to travel between Lyon and Paris for example, the time gain taking the TGV is so huge compare to the plane it doesn't make sense. But Air France still have flights few times a day for connecting passengers in Paris
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Old Oct 30, 18, 8:29 pm
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Originally Posted by blandy62 View Post
well at least for the first time in history, HK has a real dedicate rail link to the outside. I understand it might be of no use for you but for a lot of people, this is huge step forwards.

As for the TGV killing commerce in Lyon, I am not so sure what you are trying to say. Actually more and more people working in Paris, live in those cities connected by TGV because of the lower living cost and the fast transport.
the direct train predates modern day prc so i dont know what are you talking about.
and many places dont use dedicated tracks either.
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Old Oct 30, 18, 8:37 pm
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Originally Posted by moondog View Post
Fortunately HSR GROWS commerce in second and third tier Chinese cities.
it doesnt. those cities grow because of communist policies.

baseline is that it has nothing to donwith HKGCAN being flown on an a333
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