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New Business class service - from July 2018 - Experiences and Discussion

New Business class service - from July 2018 - Experiences and Discussion

Old Oct 21, 18, 7:30 pm
  #166  
 
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Coming off a fantastic flight on QR, with quick and gracious DoD service, I was wondering if anyone has a sense of the staffing levels per J passenger on CX vs. QR. Why is non-DoD service on CX taking so long, while QR manages to do it efficiently and eagerly at all times during the flight?
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Old Oct 21, 18, 7:38 pm
  #167  
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Originally Posted by SeeBuyFly View Post
Coming off a fantastic flight on QR, with quick and gracious DoD service, I was wondering if anyone has a sense of the staffing levels per J passenger on CX vs. QR. Why is non-DoD service on CX taking so long, while QR manages to do it efficiently and eagerly at all times during the flight?
I don't know the numbers, but I'm quite certain there are higher staffing levels on QR. I remember sometimes thinking that part way through a flight I would suddenly see crew that I hadn't seen earlier.

I'm going to estimate that on a 787 flight, there were at least 6 J cabin crew?
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Old Oct 21, 18, 9:29 pm
  #168  
 
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Originally Posted by SeeBuyFly View Post
Coming off a fantastic flight on QR, with quick and gracious DoD service, I was wondering if anyone has a sense of the staffing levels per J passenger on CX vs. QR. Why is non-DoD service on CX taking so long, while QR manages to do it efficiently and eagerly at all times during the flight?
Because the QR pre-departure service procedures are insane, yet drilled to a fault and thus ruthlessly efficient:
1. Pre- and during boarding, inventorise the exact number of each and every dish catering has uplifted, and note this on the sheets the FAs use to take orders
2. FAs assigned to J sections to greet respective customers
3. Serve customer's choice of PDB, including hot beverages if they wish, and cold/ warm towel
4. Give out menu, and if overnight sector also the pyjamas
5. Take as many orders as possible until "Cabin crew, take your seats"

Primarily from experience, and secondarily from the sensing of the orders coming in, the CSD decides how much of the J catering to warm up during takeoff, and the FAs reconcile their orders so as to pinpoint which customers they will have to approach to make an alternative choice due to running out of a dish. There is always at least one FA dedicated to plating too.

Lastly, from my limited experience with CX, CX ISMs don't help with the service as much as QR CSDs do.
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Old Oct 21, 18, 10:34 pm
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Originally Posted by Unionruler View Post
Lastly, from my limited experience with CX, CX ISMs don't help with the service as much as QR CSDs do.
This is the biggest difference. On QR, the CSD is a cabin position, with service responsibility. On CX however, the ISM is merely a supervisory role and helping out is their own discretion. Many CX ISMs haven't served passengers in a long time and are out of touch with service drills.

On QR B787, there are 3 crew assigned for JCL, 1 galley, 1 CSM serving the left side and another the right side. When YCL service is over, some may come up and help. QR B787 DoD works because of the high crew to pax ratio and the relatively short cabin (only 6 rows).
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Old Oct 21, 18, 10:37 pm
  #170  
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Originally Posted by sxc View Post
I'm going to estimate that on a 787 flight, there were at least 6 J cabin crew?
Originally Posted by jckl View Post

On QR B787, there are 3 crew assigned for JCL, 1 galley, 1 CSM serving the left side and another the right side. When YCL service is over, some may come up and help. QR B787 DoD works because of the high crew to pax ratio and the relatively short cabin (only 6 rows).
Funny how even with just 3 crew, with their style and speed, QR makes it feel like there are more like 6 crew serving you.
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Old Oct 21, 18, 10:44 pm
  #171  
 
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Non-working ISMs definitely a problem

Originally Posted by Unionruler View Post
Lastly, from my limited experience with CX, CX ISMs don't help with the service as much as QR CSDs do.
Originally Posted by jckl View Post
This is the biggest difference. On QR, the CSD is a cabin position, with service responsibility. On CX however, the ISM is merely a supervisory role and helping out is their own discretion. Many CX ISMs haven't served passengers in a long time and are out of touch with service drills.
Totally agree. The fact there is a crew on board who essentially does nothing except give cabin greetings is...not productive. Some ISMs are excellent and help out. But I'd say "more than 50%" don't, and anyway they're not part of the service flow, and when you have a full flight and/or needy passengers, you really feel that missing person. I'd say on at least 25%, and often 33%+ of flights on CX in J and F, I feel like service is painfully slow. Making the ISM part of the service would go a long way to improving this (unless, of course CX then cut another crew on the plane in the same move...lol something I could easily see them doing)

CX F would be truly enhanced if CX forced the ISMs to work the cabin. Similarly, on 3 class non-F birds (or regional flights) service could also be improved in J class if the ISMs were baked into the service flow. But unfortunately, they're not. When we have something like this new J class service, it just gets worse. I'm not sure anything could be done for J class on the 4 class bird where the ISM would be helping in F presumably, but CX has far more 3-class (no F) longhaul birds and the ISM could really make a difference on those.

For those of you who regularly fly F, I'm sure you notice the issues on a 6/6 full flight. Not always, but "regularly enough" whereby service takes a painfully long time, usually right after takeoff or right before landing on the nighttime longhauls North America -> HKG or HKG-> Europe. I often find the ISM isn't helping the SP+FA in these situations. Such a dumb missed opportunity. I'm not sure where the problem is, if it's just CX being muddle headed or a union issue. But it's clearly a problem. (The potential for problems decrease exponentially with just one or two fewer passengers. I find myself thrilled when it's 5/6 in F, and obviously even better if less than that. 6/6 is at the limit - especially mid-flight with one of the crew asleep - and if you have a "so so" or bad crew and some unlucky timing, service timing can be very poor).

It's my understanding there are some serious changes underway to how FAs are rostered on board. Some flights going forward won't have an ISM. But given what I know of CX, I'm doubtful this will lead to improvements for us.

On QR, as mentioned the CSD actually is part of the service flow. Cx's ISMs aren't. It's such a missed opportunity in my book.

Last edited by QRC3288; Oct 21, 18 at 10:49 pm
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Old Oct 22, 18, 1:00 am
  #172  
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QR - from my very limited sample of 1, yes, I noticed the CSD helping with the DoD service

CX - well I saw the ISM last night help pull a cart that she just overtook (it was a 77G so she still had enough room to do that). But she wan't there throughout the whole of the service.
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Old Oct 22, 18, 2:15 am
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Originally Posted by percysmith View Post
QR - from my very limited sample of 1, yes, I noticed the CSD helping with the DoD service

CX - well I saw the ISM last night help pull a cart that she just overtook (it was a 77G so she still had enough room to do that). But she wan't there throughout the whole of the service.
You'd be lucky if the ISM isn't making (or ordering the FP to make) the cockpit cappuccino or herself a latte when the galley purser is trying to plate 38 main courses and desserts on their own.

On QR 359, it is 5 FAs to 36 pax. CX 350 is 4 FAs to 38 pax. Go figure

On QR, the CSD's area of responsibility is the first 5/6 rows on the left on the cabin.

The difference in culture is in QR, there's no expectations that the higher you're promoted, the less cabin work you have to do like CX. I really think CX in the long term should eliminate the ISM position and absorb the responsibility with the SP. 3 rank hierarchy is more than enough on a single deck plane. I don't think In-Flight Supervisors are on every SQ flight other than A380s.

QR's galley positions are all rotated amongst the cabin attendant rank. Cabin Seniors and Cabin Services Directors are always a cabin position.

Try telling CX FPs or ISMs to work a cabin position...
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Old Oct 22, 18, 2:44 am
  #174  
 
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Originally Posted by percysmith View Post
CX - well I saw the ISM last night help pull a cart that she just overtook (it was a 77G so she still had enough room to do that). But she wan't there throughout the whole of the service.
Yea, just to reiterate what is being said above...the ISM may help out from time to time. But that's a far cry from actually being part of the service flow.
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Old Oct 22, 18, 3:37 am
  #175  
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Since the rollout of the new service, ISMs have been helping in J (although this is not the black-and-white procedure), so effectively 6 pairs of hands on the 77H. Unfortunately, like what has been said above, it is definitely not a good thing for those traveling in F (and indeed the 2 crew in F may also help out in J at times where needed...)
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Old Oct 22, 18, 7:05 am
  #176  
 
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Also it depends on whether the cabin is full or not.
On a QR flight from recent experience on the 359 and 787 when it is half full (which it appears to happen a lot), service is a lot fast. a LHR-DOH day flight on a A380 J Class took forever.
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Old Nov 4, 18, 3:50 am
  #177  
 
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Having experienced the new business class meal service, let me write my feedback:
- AMS-HKG with a full-J-house minus 1.
- Meal service finished just a little over 2 hours after push-back, so quite good for individual service, I would say.
- ISM helped out in J.
- The newspaper Menu style gives a good overview of the options available, etc. Feels definitely refreshing.
- The right away, still "on the ground" collection of meal choices works out fine.
- I appreciate the larger selection of the main options, despite some of these originally being "snack options". This is better.
- The no longer overloaded tray is certainly nice aspect and makes the meal certainly feel more "valuable".
- The soup as a starter option, I liked that too.
- Overall good taste, though the cheese plate may need another look, 2 big chunks of hard cheese is not a cheese plate......
- CX, please bring back the normal salt & pepper, in stead of having to ask for that. The tray is no longer overloaded, so it would fit.
- The artistic side/setup/colouring needs some getting used to, compared to the previous all-white setup, though not bad at all.
- The new style does in real life match better with the CX cabin interior, then I expected, based on the published pictures.
- Hamburger French fries high up in the air: Hmmm, the crunchy character was left behind on the ground.
- The Hamburger patty tasted excellent, as well as the condiments and vegetables.
- The upfront breakfast selection works out pretty well.
- The express breakfast option is also a good one.
- I gave the J crew a positive feedback for their service, which seemed to be highly appreciated.
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Old Nov 4, 18, 10:14 am
  #178  
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Originally Posted by Christian2011 View Post
Western breakfast with poached eggs


Western breakfast with poached eggs (they were perfect)

That looks like an absolutely amazing poached egg (at least in the air). Compare that to the "Eggs Benedict" I had on Qatar Airways on JFK-DOH, with fully cooked eggs and solid Hollandaise Sauce. Needless to say, I gagged on the first bite and wasn't able to eat the egg or the sauce.


Well done(?) CX
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Old Nov 5, 18, 2:46 am
  #179  
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A quick browse through here will show you the utter hatred of the new service by crew and the even greater resentment to management. Not a good airline these days and we all know what happens when you bite the hand that feeds you. A true picture of bean counters running a legacy airline into the ground https://www.facebook.com/cxsecret/
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Old Nov 27, 18, 1:15 pm
  #180  
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Update regarding PSJ new business class service:
Effective December 1st, there will not be any choice of appetizers anymore as the number of appetizers will be reduced from three to just one (take it or leave it). Apparently has to do with too many CC complaining and rollout of new service with LHR base.
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