sxc

Not sure what is more spiteful. This, or CX changing their lounge access policies because they can’t create a successful loyalty program. Or CX thumbing their noses at those who paid good money earning status flying economy.

ermen

QR is not a good example. Their own elites don't get access to Al Safwa / Al Mourjan. In fact EVERONE is treated equally - ie access via class of service (which btw doesnt preclude the "grAAbers or grASpers" so often complained about.

NOBODY in OW has a lounge where their own OWE can enter to the exclusion of others.

The equivalent would be CX saying that only their F/J ticketed passengers can enter their lounge. Imagine the outcry that would cause when Mr ex TPE/PVG on an I ticket (which is QR's model) gets to enter, but Mr DM who is flying Y HKG-SIN due to company policy can't?

swingaling

You make a good point. I suspect there are also those of us who are AA elites, but spend a disproportionately high amount with CX (for various reasons). In 2017, I spent the same with CX as I did with AA. In 2018, my spend on CX is triple my spend on AA. So while I'm nominally an AA elite, I'm probably a more valuable customer to CX than I am to AA.

Kachjc

does not matter CX is still carrying a higher % of premium customers than SQ

andersonCooper

Same boat here.Last year was a draw but this year I have 2 LH RT with CX J so far but nothing with AA. Probably will have to gift SWU if I don't go to EU later this year.

I also agree with ermen above. If CX has a special lounge, it would be a CX or OW F pax access. If CX somehow gets away with OW rules and makes MPC-only club, I guess it's easy to maintain a low SL with MPC.

QRC3288

Yea, I suspect there are a number of folks like you. This is where CX is really dumb and somewhat underscores some of my key points. It will be more profitable to CX to have you as MPC members.

To the extent my final point above causes any controversy ("think of all the lost lounge entry fees!"), lounge entry fees are a rounding error compared to what airlines make selling miles to credit card companies. CX is getting taken to the cleaners by their very own OW partners. It's somewhat by stealth....because it has nothing to do with buying tickets with cash....but AA and Avios sell ungodly more miles than MPC/AM, and one part of that is AA and Avios essentially permit miles redemption arbitrage on other OW carriers.

A key reason people stick with the partner (non CX MPC/AM) program is an (overall) superior earn/burn ratio overall. The solution for CX is plainly obvious to me: enhance value at MPC/AM in relation to partners.

Final point: all of this is achievable because CX is the asset owner! Ultimately they are CX planes and lounges folks are redeeming to utilize. And CX fully owns MPC/AM.

QRC3288

100pct agree. The fault is with CX, not the customers of the partners! Obviously, the OWE customers are just acting in their rational self interest.

I can only speak for myself, but will say that 90pct+ of my OW benefits are "availed" on CX. AA lounges are so awful in most US cities I usually sit in a bar or restaurant and eat there. For me at least, in the USA I mostly use CX to position to major cities, and then fly among minor ones.

To me, the alliance isn't THAT important. In the 2-3x annually I fly across the US, I've used JetBlue product called "Mint" the last few times. I've flown that AA "F" before (using CX's hard J product longhaul), service wasn't anything to write home about and JetBlue was better. I fly Delta "First" (US style) if it competes with American on a route despite not having status with Delta or their alliance. To be honest, if possible I actually avoid AA when possible[/QUOTE]

Mate, time is what stops us!! So let me say "disagree" to this point. I've tried to utilize the cheap tickets before, with mixed success. Ones that allow dual stopovers are good since I do so much business regionally. But "repositioning" just for getting a cheaper ticket's sake is just not an available option for me.

We have booked Alaska F tickets before, a few for myself and more for colleagues. (Thanks to this forum for knowing about it, credit where it's due). But this system is driving my secretary and colleagues crazy because you don't know if you'll get the flight or not. We had to cut this back because it doesn't seem like you can predict what flight you can get anymore.

I can't speak for others, this is just my situation.

sxc

One thing is sure. It seems CX makes decisions in the absence of good data analysis. Instead they use the sentiment of their diamonds to make decisions.

The Diamonds claimed there were too many people with status who didn’t spend enough. CX changed the program...and lost and back tracked.

If this lounge access rumour comes true, it sounds like more reactionary decisions based on Diamond feedback. And what is the upside for CX? Will those diamonds spend more? Unlikely. Will Emeralds change to Marco Polo? They will look at the qualification requirements and say no thanks. Will CX Golds be tempted to fly more? Maybe...but you would think those that can would already have been tempted to get to Diamond.

So they may make this change without the data analysis, create angst amongst their Oneworld referred traffic with little revenue upside.

QRC3288

Haha mate, this sounds salty!

I can't speak for others, but it seemed patently obvious (to this Diamond, at least) that "economy" Diamonds were not the problem. They were some of the most passionate flyers for the brand. Economically speaking, they were paying high yields in the back which was hugely helpful. Now CX learned the hard way..

To your point about listening to Diamonds to make decisions, I'm pretty sure it was a consultant who delivered the changes to CX, and it was heavily lifted from some concepts designed by SQ and QF. In my case, I've told management at CX in person the changes were bound to backfire. I feel fairly confident at least in person, they 0pct take my input!

And the lounges were crowded (and still are, many times). Not uncommon to wait in a like for breakfast at the Wing on weekdays still. So this is still definitely a problem IMO.

Practically speaking, an economy Diamond really enjoys the benefits because they're stuck for 12 hours crammed in a sardine seat. A bottle of water and superior service goes a long way.

Where CX is dumb, I feel like a broken record, is by harming MPC/AM (or said another way, making OW alliance partners a superior deal to customers, even when flying on CX. CX should be absolutely finding ways to pull them into MPC/AM).

What has changed in the last decade is the incredible international nature of frequent flyer programs. This is fundamentally different than the founding days of FF programs. The programs' new intl nature has definitely perverted, to some extent, the very purpose of an alliance. Decades ago you joined your home airline club, and used the benefits of other carriers when flying the other carriers. Now, you could be 100pct flying your home airline for everything but crediting to a mileage program 10,000 miles away. Heck, now people belong to 10+ frequent flyer programs for the sole purpose of mileage arbitrage!

(I'm not saying people doing this are bad, hell I've done it. I'm just saying, it is definitely not the spirit underlying the system).

The system has broken down when airlines are offering such obvious arbitrage. For example, BA Avios business class intra Asia on CX. And, Amex points transfer for both BA and CX. Amex buys points from Asia Miles and BA Avios. On this case, BA gets the cash. Then, BA redeems on CX and it works because CX has a stupid low rate to BA. BAs arbing CX blatantly with this type of transaction, because those lost miles transfer to AM/MPC is pure lost revenue to CX. The only reason the arb continues is airlines have varying degrees of IT and management sophistication. CX is in the "below average" bucket. But I can assure you, despite all the arguing in favor on here, the partner arbitrage thing is not beneficial to CX.

Just to make crystal clear the corner I argue: the asset owner aka airline operating the assets, should align their FF program to grossly incentivize the two go together. Aka you really benefit if you're MPC on CX, AA on AA, BAEC on BA, etc. Because all the "alliance" does is really just enable folks to arbitrage other programs. And this is a zero sum game, fyi.

TravelwhileyouEat

I agree with this, which is why I am with AA not AM or MPC, since I fly between Asia and the US a lot (would be with BA if I flied to EU more but I don't and don't fly BA metal to actually meet the elite requirement). CX offers better lounges compared to other OW partners where I travel to which is why I go to their lounge instead of AA's. The 'small things' that are currently in the program for elites such as better treatment during IRROPs simply isn't enough for me to join MPC and aim for DM, and I could never reach DM+ because I split my travel between OW and *A. Even my dad who reached lifetime DM (when it was a thing), and is still has DM status even stopped flying CX for his monthly EU business trip in favor of SQ and LH/LX because he feels they make him feel more valued as an elite (but that's his personal opinion).

A way CX could incentivize me to switch to MPC is to protect long-haul premium cabin redemption from partners like what SQ does where only KF members can generally redeem LH product J and F. Keeping availability those aspirational long-haul F routes to your own members could help keep them within your own program.

APeverell

Don't believe DM+ only lounge possible. For my past 3 HKG LAX flights this week, there was at most 1 DM+ inflight. And if there are only 2-300 DM+ WW, how would this lounge sustainable?

BTW, I do make the effort to fly to TPE for my TPAC trips, though the price I can get keep climbing up in the past two years, ranging from 4000~6000 rt, still beats 7000~1000 from HKG, though

G-CIVC

I don't understand what oneworld policy there is that prevents DM getting in and OWE not. How about AA, which does the other way round, as in its own EXP (emeralds) can't get into lounges but other partner OWEs can? I highly doubt there is a 'requirement' that prevents discrimination.

Honestly, I'd very much rather wish they cut/limit access for SLs - anyone agree with me that they are the real source for overcrowding?

Kachjc

I do recall lots of people complaining on here prior to CX making the changes to MPC about Diamonds who did not spend enough....

But this is a forum that will always complain about CX no matter what they do, no matter how fast they respond to errors.

sxc

We can probably go to and fro as to how this came about since we don't know what happened behind closed doors. But you and I know that consultants will base their proposals on their brief. So it probably went something like this:

Consultant: What do you want to achieve?
CX: Increased loyalty.
Consultant: What is wrong with what you currently have?
CX: We have people who earn status too cheaply, and it undermines those who earn status flying in premium cabins.
Consultant: Okay let's see what we can come up with.

Even if the consultants presented data to support their proposal, it obviously wasn't good data.

I know that a previous head of Marco Polo disliked status runners. However these are the people who have the discretionary income and time to contribute additional revenue to the company. He wasn't the head of MPC when these changes came in, but his influence/culture probably remained.

Anyway my point is that I think the evidence points to changes to the loyalty program being led by emotion and sentiment more than hard data analysis.

andersonCooper

Agree it is an international program, but MPC/AM has a lot of local or outdated elements: unfriendly expiration policy/accumulation methods for folks outside of HKG (I know a lot of HKG/Asia expat here in the States usually pay for their LH flights home, so they get the credits, and redeem for last minute flights.), barrier to enter (really? $100 for paying more later?), no lifetime status and segment-oriented/arbitrary points system (Why do I spent $2k to fly J JFK-LAX ~2500 miles getting the same CP as a domestic J, aka CX PE, AA flight from LGA to ATL ~790 miles for $500).

I don't agree it's a zero-sum game. If I were a free agent, I probably will fly the cheapest J (UA most likely here), instead of CX. Now I pay CX, who then pays AA for the AA miles I earn. Not the best case for CX as compared to MPC member, but better than $0. But I agree with your point that there should be an alignment here, given now OWE almost covers DM benefits while being easier to obtain. The problem is CX has no idea how to differentiate MPC from OW FFP. Silver/OWS lounge access - easier to get from OW; Bookable upgrade - booking code restrictions and distance restrictions for GO. There is literally nothing here that stands out from the crowd. AA has no creativity but at least there are unlimited domestic upgrades and "bookable upgrades" without code restrictions, which are good for domestic OWE.