CX Singapore doesn't know about the Chinese transit visa waiver rules
Oct 25, 2017, 8:34 am
#46
Join Date: May 2006
Location: PMD
Programs: UA*G, NW, AA-G. WR-P, HH-G, IHG-S, ALL. TT-GE.
Posts: 2,907
Singaporeans don't need visa for China, right? This may explain the ignorance, similar to other FT threads reporting the same in Japan.
Oct 25, 2017, 8:48 am
#47
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boulder
Programs: AA Plat, CX Silver
Posts: 2,361
When does OP reach HKG?
I've done TWOV with KA ex-HKG before on separate tickets and the agent never once questioned my itinerary's validity. I think once OP reaches HKG this will all be solved.
I've done TWOV with KA ex-HKG before on separate tickets and the agent never once questioned my itinerary's validity. I think once OP reaches HKG this will all be solved.
Oct 25, 2017, 8:54 am
#48
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NYC/SIN
Programs: CX DM, SQ KF
Posts: 2,169
i think the fact you have 2 ticket was basis of their refusal, arguing visa waiver do not apply cuz your sin-hkg-pvg ticket shows you stay in PVG longer than 5days or whatever length is... yes i get u have nested ticketing of PVG elsewhere that departs within ur time frame but that is ON THE GROUNDS you can enter china... so its chicken or egg situations...
Oct 25, 2017, 9:04 am
#49
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TPE / HSZ
Programs: CX GO (=SPH), IHG Diamond Amb, Hertz 5*, Accor, Hilton, National
Posts: 6,436
It may be too late, but the verbiage is here, bolded, with the correct command that the agent needs to use bolded, too. I don't think anyone who argues that CX can refuse on the basis of separate tickets has a valid point as the onward ticket does not even need to be an air ticket. I also recommend that any person who tries to do this bring a copy of TIMATIC printout with them, if possible. For OP's reference, this happened to 2 friends of mine (travelling together) when checking in with UA at FLL, too. I emailed them the verbiage and then the agent allowed them to travel.
In TIMATIC language, "VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT..." is quite standard and just means that the visa-free condition will be listed afterwards.
Code:
TIRV/NAFRA/TRPVG«
TIMATIC-3 / 25OCT17 / 1455 UTC
NATIONAL GERMANY /DE/
TRANSIT CHINA /PEOPLE$S REP./ /CN/
VISA TRANSIT CHINA /PEOPLE$S REP./ /CN/
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
TWOV /TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA/:
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR HOLDERS OF CONFIRMED ONWARD AIR,
CRUISE OR TRAIN TICKETS FOR A MAX. TRANSIT TIRULES/R32 TIME
OF 24 HOURS. TRANSIT INCL. MULTIPLE STOPS WITHIN CHINA
/PEOPLE$S REP./, WITH A TOTAL TRANSIT TIME OF MAX. 24 HOURS,
IS PERMITTED. THEY MUST TRAVEL TO A THIRD COUNTRY.
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT POSSIBLE AT FUZHOU
/FOC/, HUANGSHAN /TXN/, MUDANJIANG /MDG/, SHENZHEN /SZX/
AND YANJI /YNJ/.
- THIS DOES NOT APPLY AT URUMQI /URC/.
- THIS DOES NOT APPLY AT GUANGZHOU /CAN/.
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT PERMITTED WHEN THE
PASSENGER ARRIVES AND DEPARTS ON DIRECT FLIGHTS FROM/TO USA
AND USA TERRITORY GUAM OR NORTHERN MARIANA ISL.
TIPN
TIPN«
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR HOLDERS OF CONFIRMED ONWARD AIRLINE
TICKETS, IN TRANSIT THROUGH URUMQI /URC/, FOR A MAX. TRANSIT
TIRULES/R32 TIME OF 2 HOURS. TRANSIT INCL. MULTIPLE STOPS
WITHIN CHINA /PEOPLE$S REP./, WITH A TOTAL TRANSIT TIME OF
MAX. 24 HOURS, IS PERMITTED.
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT PERMITTED WHEN THE
PASSENGER ARRIVES AND DEPARTS ON DIRECT FLIGHTS FROM/TO USA
AND USA TERRITORY GUAM OR NORTHERN MARIANA ISL.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR HOLDERS OF CONFIRMED ONWARD AIR
TICKETS IN TRANSIT THROUGH GUANGZHOU /CAN/ TO A THIRD COUNTRY,
FOR A MAX. TRANSITTIRULES/R32 TIME OF 24 HOURS.
- TRANSIT INCL. MULTIPLE STOPS WITHIN CHINA /PEOPLE$S REP./
IS PERMITTED AT GUANGZHOU /CAN/ ONLY WHEN THE FIRST TRANSIT
POINT IS BEIJING /PEK/. THE TOTAL MAXIMUM TRANSIT TIME IS
24 HOURS.
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT PERMITTED WHEN THE
PASSENGER ARRIVES AND DEPARTS ON DIRECT FLIGHTS FROM/TO USA
AND USA TERRITORY GUAM OR NORTHERN MARIANA ISL.
-
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR NATIONALS OF GERMANY HOLDING
CONFIRMED ONWARD AIRLINE TICKETS DEPARTING DIRECTLY TO A THIRD
TIPN
TIPN«
COUNTRY, IF ARRIVING IN AND DEPARTING FROM THE SAME CITY:
- AT CHANGSHA /CSX/, CHENGDU /CTU/, CHONGQING /CKG/, DALIAN
/DLC/, GUANGZHOU /CAN/, QINGDAO /TAO/, TIANJIN /TSN/, WUHAN
/WUH/, XI$AN /XIY/ OR XIAMEN /XMN/ FOR A MAX. TRANSIT TIME
OF 72 HOURS, STARTING FROM 00:01 ON THE DAY FOLLOWING THE
DAY OF ENTRY.
- AT BEIJING /PEK/, GUILIN /KWL/, HARBIN /HRB/, KUNMING
/KMG/, OR SHENYANG /SHE/ FOR A MAX. TRANSIT TIME OF 72
HOURS
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT PERMITTED WHEN THE
PASSENGER ARRIVES AND DEPARTS ON DIRECT FLIGHTS FROM/TO USA
AND USA TERRITORY GUAM OR NORTHERN MARIANA ISL.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR NATIONALS OF GERMANY HOLDING
CONFIRMED ONWARD AIR, CRUISE OR TRAIN TICKETS TO A THIRD
COUNTRY, ARRIVING IN AND DEPARTING FROM ANY ONE OF THE
FOLLOWING LOCATIONS: HANGZHOU /HGH/, NANJING LUKOU /NKG/,
SHANGHAI HONGQIAO /SHA/, SHANGHAI PUDONG /PVG/, SHANGHAI PORT
INTERNATIONAL CRUISE TERMINAL, SHANGHAI WUSONGKOU
INTERNATIONAL CRUISE TERMINAL OR SHANGHAI RAILWAY STATION FOR
A MAXIMUM OF 144 HOURS, STARTING FROM 00:01 ON THE DAY
FOLLOWING THE DAY OF ENTRY.
TIPN
TIPN«
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT PERMITTED WHEN THE
PASSENGER ARRIVES AND DEPARTS ON DIRECT FLIGHTS FROM/TO USA
AND USA TERRITORY GUAM OR NORTHERN MARIANA ISL.
- ALL TRANSITING PASSENGERS ARE SUBJECT TO A CHECK BY
IMMIGRATION. PASSENGERS IN TRANSIT MUST HOLD PASSPORTS OR
OTHER DOCUMENTS ACCEPTED TO ENTER CHINA /PEOPLE$S REP./. .
FOR DETAILS ON DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS, PLEASE ENTER CHINA
/PEOPLE$S REP./ AS A DESTINATION
- THIS DOES NOT APPLY AT BEIJING /PEK/ IF STAYING IN THE
INTERNATIONAL TRANSIT AREA.
- WHEN TRANSITING IN CHENGDU /CTU/, CARRIERS MUST SEND
NOTIFICATION TO THE CTU IMMIGRATION OFFICE BEFORE DEPARTURE.
- WHEN TRANSITING IN CHANGSHA /CSX/ OR XIAMEN /XMN/ FOR A
MAXIMUM STAY OF 72 HOURS, CARRIERS MUST SEND NOTIFICATION TO
THE LOCAL IMMIGRATION OFFICE BEFORE DEPARTURE.
SIMPLIFY YOUR REQUEST USE TIFA, TIFV AND TIFH
FULL TEXT AVAILABLE USE TIDFT
CHECK TINEWS/N1 - TURKEY: NO VOA FOR US NATIONALS
TIPN
TIPN«
SCAN COMPLETE
Oct 25, 2017, 9:12 am
#50
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southeast USA
Programs: various
Posts: 6,710
CX contract staff is wrong, this is eligible for 144-hour TWOV since the passenger is a German passport holder. @warakorn did everything right to prepare and nothing wrong.
The solution I would have advocated (short check to HKG and let them sort it out there) is the one that this poster came up with, though it's nearly unbelievable that the police had to be involved before even doing this.
Every so often, I hear about stubborn check-in staff, but this situation is pretty extreme and truly bad luck to have gotten these clowns. I would suggest that @warakorn try to follow up to various airline and airport authorities to the extent possible, naming the guilty and asking for their dismissal and for all staff (regular and contract) to be properly trained. Also complain to CX Customer Service HQ in Hong Kong.
Any incident that required police to be called probably got on somebody's radar screen somewhere.
The solution I would have advocated (short check to HKG and let them sort it out there) is the one that this poster came up with, though it's nearly unbelievable that the police had to be involved before even doing this.
Every so often, I hear about stubborn check-in staff, but this situation is pretty extreme and truly bad luck to have gotten these clowns. I would suggest that @warakorn try to follow up to various airline and airport authorities to the extent possible, naming the guilty and asking for their dismissal and for all staff (regular and contract) to be properly trained. Also complain to CX Customer Service HQ in Hong Kong.
Any incident that required police to be called probably got on somebody's radar screen somewhere.
Last edited by jiejie; Oct 25, 2017 at 9:21 am
Oct 25, 2017, 9:17 am
#51
Join Date: May 2006
Location: PMD
Programs: UA*G, NW, AA-G. WR-P, HH-G, IHG-S, ALL. TT-GE.
Posts: 2,907
Very good point! This also renders the logic that "since you can't stay in 'transit area' for 5 nights you can't TWOV" invalid! If you can get out to catch a ship or train (presumably to Hong Kong which has exit check in Shanghai) six days later, it should be OK to return to an airport six days later to catch a flight to a third "country".
Oct 25, 2017, 9:20 am
#52
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
It may be too late, but the verbiage is here, bolded, with the correct command that the agent needs to use bolded, too. I don't think anyone who argues that CX can refuse on the basis of separate tickets has a valid point as the onward ticket does not even need to be an air ticket. I also recommend that any person who tries to do this bring a copy of TIMATIC printout with them, if possible. For OP's reference, this happened to 2 friends of mine (travelling together) when checking in with UA at FLL, too. I emailed them the verbiage and then the agent allowed them to travel.
In TIMATIC language, "VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT..." is quite standard and just means that the visa-free condition will be listed afterwards.
Code:
TIRV/NAFRA/TRPVG«
TIMATIC-3 / 25OCT17 / 1455 UTC
NATIONAL GERMANY /DE/
TRANSIT CHINA /PEOPLE$S REP./ /CN/
VISA TRANSIT CHINA /PEOPLE$S REP./ /CN/
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
TWOV /TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA/:
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR HOLDERS OF CONFIRMED ONWARD AIR,
CRUISE OR TRAIN TICKETS FOR A MAX. TRANSIT TIRULES/R32 TIME
OF 24 HOURS. TRANSIT INCL. MULTIPLE STOPS WITHIN CHINA
/PEOPLE$S REP./, WITH A TOTAL TRANSIT TIME OF MAX. 24 HOURS,
IS PERMITTED. THEY MUST TRAVEL TO A THIRD COUNTRY.
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT POSSIBLE AT FUZHOU
/FOC/, HUANGSHAN /TXN/, MUDANJIANG /MDG/, SHENZHEN /SZX/
AND YANJI /YNJ/.
- THIS DOES NOT APPLY AT URUMQI /URC/.
- THIS DOES NOT APPLY AT GUANGZHOU /CAN/.
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT PERMITTED WHEN THE
PASSENGER ARRIVES AND DEPARTS ON DIRECT FLIGHTS FROM/TO USA
AND USA TERRITORY GUAM OR NORTHERN MARIANA ISL.
TIPN
TIPN«
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR HOLDERS OF CONFIRMED ONWARD AIRLINE
TICKETS, IN TRANSIT THROUGH URUMQI /URC/, FOR A MAX. TRANSIT
TIRULES/R32 TIME OF 2 HOURS. TRANSIT INCL. MULTIPLE STOPS
WITHIN CHINA /PEOPLE$S REP./, WITH A TOTAL TRANSIT TIME OF
MAX. 24 HOURS, IS PERMITTED.
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT PERMITTED WHEN THE
PASSENGER ARRIVES AND DEPARTS ON DIRECT FLIGHTS FROM/TO USA
AND USA TERRITORY GUAM OR NORTHERN MARIANA ISL.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR HOLDERS OF CONFIRMED ONWARD AIR
TICKETS IN TRANSIT THROUGH GUANGZHOU /CAN/ TO A THIRD COUNTRY,
FOR A MAX. TRANSITTIRULES/R32 TIME OF 24 HOURS.
- TRANSIT INCL. MULTIPLE STOPS WITHIN CHINA /PEOPLE$S REP./
IS PERMITTED AT GUANGZHOU /CAN/ ONLY WHEN THE FIRST TRANSIT
POINT IS BEIJING /PEK/. THE TOTAL MAXIMUM TRANSIT TIME IS
24 HOURS.
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT PERMITTED WHEN THE
PASSENGER ARRIVES AND DEPARTS ON DIRECT FLIGHTS FROM/TO USA
AND USA TERRITORY GUAM OR NORTHERN MARIANA ISL.
-
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR NATIONALS OF GERMANY HOLDING
CONFIRMED ONWARD AIRLINE TICKETS DEPARTING DIRECTLY TO A THIRD
TIPN
TIPN«
COUNTRY, IF ARRIVING IN AND DEPARTING FROM THE SAME CITY:
- AT CHANGSHA /CSX/, CHENGDU /CTU/, CHONGQING /CKG/, DALIAN
/DLC/, GUANGZHOU /CAN/, QINGDAO /TAO/, TIANJIN /TSN/, WUHAN
/WUH/, XI$AN /XIY/ OR XIAMEN /XMN/ FOR A MAX. TRANSIT TIME
OF 72 HOURS, STARTING FROM 00:01 ON THE DAY FOLLOWING THE
DAY OF ENTRY.
- AT BEIJING /PEK/, GUILIN /KWL/, HARBIN /HRB/, KUNMING
/KMG/, OR SHENYANG /SHE/ FOR A MAX. TRANSIT TIME OF 72
HOURS
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT PERMITTED WHEN THE
PASSENGER ARRIVES AND DEPARTS ON DIRECT FLIGHTS FROM/TO USA
AND USA TERRITORY GUAM OR NORTHERN MARIANA ISL.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR NATIONALS OF GERMANY HOLDING
CONFIRMED ONWARD AIR, CRUISE OR TRAIN TICKETS TO A THIRD
COUNTRY, ARRIVING IN AND DEPARTING FROM ANY ONE OF THE
FOLLOWING LOCATIONS: HANGZHOU /HGH/, NANJING LUKOU /NKG/,
SHANGHAI HONGQIAO /SHA/, SHANGHAI PUDONG /PVG/, SHANGHAI PORT
INTERNATIONAL CRUISE TERMINAL, SHANGHAI WUSONGKOU
INTERNATIONAL CRUISE TERMINAL OR SHANGHAI RAILWAY STATION FOR
A MAXIMUM OF 144 HOURS, STARTING FROM 00:01 ON THE DAY
FOLLOWING THE DAY OF ENTRY.
TIPN
TIPN«
- TRANSIT WITHOUT VISA /TWOV/ IS NOT PERMITTED WHEN THE
PASSENGER ARRIVES AND DEPARTS ON DIRECT FLIGHTS FROM/TO USA
AND USA TERRITORY GUAM OR NORTHERN MARIANA ISL.
- ALL TRANSITING PASSENGERS ARE SUBJECT TO A CHECK BY
IMMIGRATION. PASSENGERS IN TRANSIT MUST HOLD PASSPORTS OR
OTHER DOCUMENTS ACCEPTED TO ENTER CHINA /PEOPLE$S REP./. .
FOR DETAILS ON DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS, PLEASE ENTER CHINA
/PEOPLE$S REP./ AS A DESTINATION
- THIS DOES NOT APPLY AT BEIJING /PEK/ IF STAYING IN THE
INTERNATIONAL TRANSIT AREA.
- WHEN TRANSITING IN CHENGDU /CTU/, CARRIERS MUST SEND
NOTIFICATION TO THE CTU IMMIGRATION OFFICE BEFORE DEPARTURE.
- WHEN TRANSITING IN CHANGSHA /CSX/ OR XIAMEN /XMN/ FOR A
MAXIMUM STAY OF 72 HOURS, CARRIERS MUST SEND NOTIFICATION TO
THE LOCAL IMMIGRATION OFFICE BEFORE DEPARTURE.
SIMPLIFY YOUR REQUEST USE TIFA, TIFV AND TIFH
FULL TEXT AVAILABLE USE TIDFT
CHECK TINEWS/N1 - TURKEY: NO VOA FOR US NATIONALS
TIPN
TIPN«
SCAN COMPLETE
The text you reference appears numerous times on FT and is, of course, available online without cost through numerous sites. It is also what CX can pull up at its terminals.
The problem is not right & wrong, but rather clarity for people who use terms in a different setting. TIMATIC is an IATA product and exists solely for clarity for its member carriers.
The mere fact that there are this many incidents in different situations means that definitionally, it is not sufficiently clear for the purpose intended, e.g., minimally-trained check-in staff.
Oct 25, 2017, 9:27 am
#53
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: JFK/LGA/EWR
Posts: 1,296
The essential meaning of transit is "to pass through." TWOV in essence gives you the right to pass through China without a visa as long as you meet the established requirements set by the Chinese government. It doesn't (or shouldn't) matter how airlines use the term.
Oct 25, 2017, 9:33 am
#54
Suspended
Join Date: May 2006
Location: HKG
Programs: A3, TK *G; JL JGC; SPG,Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,952
Certainly, if this would have happened at an United Express counter in a small US city (e.g. Rochester), I could understand that staff may not be familiar with these visa rules (or may not be able to read Timatic).
But this is Singapore and CX (again, CX is a Chinese carrier in my eyes, but I respect the opinions of others posters that it is not).
But this is Singapore and CX (again, CX is a Chinese carrier in my eyes, but I respect the opinions of others posters that it is not).
Oct 25, 2017, 9:36 am
#55
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NYC/SIN
Programs: CX DM, SQ KF
Posts: 2,169
It may be too late, but the verbiage is here, bolded, with the correct command that the agent needs to use bolded, too. I don't think anyone who argues that CX can refuse on the basis of separate tickets has a valid point as the onward ticket does not even need to be an air ticket. I also recommend that any person who tries to do this bring a copy of TIMATIC printout with them, if possible
in case not already done, this needs to be stickied on the TWOV thread...
Not that it's applicable for me, but I for one, would be comfortable 'trying my luck' with this in hand- atleast with CX.
Oct 25, 2017, 9:37 am
#56
Suspended
Join Date: May 2006
Location: HKG
Programs: A3, TK *G; JL JGC; SPG,Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,952
It's interesting that in Singapore, where the primary official language is English, your colleague felt that it would be more productive to speak to the CX staff in Chinese!
My feeling is 99% confidence that you'll be fine at HKG. But please write to CX expressing your dissatisfaction with the training of the staff at SIN (once you have confirmation that they were wrong).
My feeling is 99% confidence that you'll be fine at HKG. But please write to CX expressing your dissatisfaction with the training of the staff at SIN (once you have confirmation that they were wrong).
but that said, whether or not one is on trasit is still in cx’s hands.
Last edited by sxc; Oct 25, 2017 at 10:21 pm Reason: Removed OT comments
Oct 25, 2017, 9:45 am
#57
Suspended
Join Date: May 2006
Location: HKG
Programs: A3, TK *G; JL JGC; SPG,Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,952
get a visa!
Oct 25, 2017, 9:47 am
#58
Join Date: May 2006
Location: PMD
Programs: UA*G, NW, AA-G. WR-P, HH-G, IHG-S, ALL. TT-GE.
Posts: 2,907
Therefore agents in Japan could already be expected to be ignorant about TWOV. And now it has been proven that agents in Singapore (an English-speaking country) can also be just as ignorant.
Oct 25, 2017, 9:50 am
#59
Join Date: May 2006
Location: PMD
Programs: UA*G, NW, AA-G. WR-P, HH-G, IHG-S, ALL. TT-GE.
Posts: 2,907
well, the thing is, had op been in usa flying aa on a transit in china for a transit in japan going back to usa, he would hv been rejected by aa anyways. Is it legal for aa to do do? Not really. But what was everyone going to go about that in the aa twov thread?
get a visa!
get a visa!
And as I mentioned upthread, you could be denied a visa with a TWOV-compliant itin!
Oct 25, 2017, 9:51 am
#60
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: JFK/LGA/EWR
Posts: 1,296
Verified: Japan and Singapore are practically the only two countries whose citizens can visit China without visa (and can fly direct anyway).
Therefore agents in Japan could already be expected to be ignorant about TWOV. And now it has been proven that agents in Singapore (an English-speaking country) can also be just as ignorant.
Therefore agents in Japan could already be expected to be ignorant about TWOV. And now it has been proven that agents in Singapore (an English-speaking country) can also be just as ignorant.