CX New strategy rollout in 2017

Old May 28, 2017, 8:22 pm
  #271  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyPointyEnd
I hope they don't because under the the new points system I have been able to requalify with 1 month to spare for the past 2 years. I don't need the lounge pass and I doubt I could get an additional 400 in 1 month so I just normally hit the reset button as soon as i hit 1200.

Plus under the new system I don't even have to do any sector runs like in the past.
Yea, the new system is actually very easy if you regularly pay for J and F.

Although it has caused an exodus from MPC for Y and PEY fliers.
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Old May 28, 2017, 8:28 pm
  #272  
 
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Originally Posted by QRC3288
Yea, the new system is actually very easy if you regularly pay for J and F.

Although it has caused an exodus from MPC for Y and PEY fliers.
I heard that was one of the purpose of changing it, members who fly Y and PEY could still easily qualify for Gold but DM would be a challenge unlike under the old system.

OT : I wonder whats gonna happen now to those who moved to AA after they announced their program changes.
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Old May 28, 2017, 8:57 pm
  #273  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyPointyEnd
I heard that was one of the purpose of changing it, members who fly Y and PEY could still easily qualify for Gold but DM would be a challenge unlike under the old system.

OT : I wonder whats gonna happen now to those who moved to AA after they announced their program changes.
(perhaps I shouldn't say DM is "very easy", because it's still way harder on CX than most of the other partner programs. But my point is, it has become far easier to qualify on CX than before if you're a regular cash J or F purchaser, while it has gotten nigh impossible if you're a regular Y or PEY ticket buyer).

End of the day, FF programs are going to need adjusting. The world is just getting a lot more global. You can be in Hong Kong, but it might make sense to be part of the AA partner program that is "based" 7,000 miles away. This dynamic simply didn't exist two decades ago when FF programs took off, and really weren't even prevalent 10+ years ago to the extent they are today.

FF programs were to encourage guys to fly on their own metal and drive revenue. That should still be the purpose. Airlines have alliances which both help, but also make things complicated especially in this hyper global world. I'm not sure what the solution is. But in spirit, I do agree with someone like samuelo in other threads, even if perhaps his message is a bit blunt and not politically correct. IF Cathay is going to own a mileage program, it should exist to drive more revenue. And that's failing now. In fact, Cathay is crushing revenue by other's award programs. Why not just go full outsource mode then?

For example, I have spent at least $25k USD and up to $125k USD/year every single year on CX for a decade now. I'm Diamond and have been virtually that entire time, except for the 9-12 months or so it took me to work up from Green in the beginning. Yes, occasionally I buy Y tickets, and often even I fly J class when I would go F simply because F isn't available to my destination or on the scheduled flight time I want. The idea that there should be an "class of service only" lounge is comedy to me, as proposed elsewhere....no, someone who goes out of their way to book the sole departure to "experience" F a few times a year is not more valuable than my decade of consistent and reliable cash revenue. It would be remarkably short-term thinking to favor that passenger in such an instance, and this is precisely the reason FF programs exist - to ascertain an intrinsic "value" to loyal return passengers despite the inevitable flight-by-flight differences. If I buy Y occasionally regionally, or fly J because I must take the daytime flight to SFO (without F), the idea to chuck us in the J lounge while a bunch of partner award bookers take selfies in the F lounge waiting 12 hours for the nighttime departure (with F) is just bad good business. I am probably closing in on $1mm USD spent in the next 2-5 years on Cathay. It is not a small amount. The idea that Cathay treats all OWEs, award bookers and whatnot the same as me is not lost on me or my peers, and it is driving my revenue elsewhere.

I've been quite loyal, and am still with MPC, but I fly significant less CX than I did before once I found out how the mileage programs and arbitrage really work here. Are guys like me important to CX like we probably were 10-20 years ago? Maybe not anymore, in which case then they're doing the right strategy. CX has gotta do what's right in this brave new world and maybe that means moving away from loyal cash spenders based in the home port. I'm willing to embrace this possibility. In that case I think they should just can their own loyalty program altogether because it has obviously lost the plot (it's causing me to push revenue elsewhere). At least, I can tell you they're not maximizing the wallet share of me and my peers like they were before.

In my mind, the loyalty program should be driving revenue. If it's not, then what's the point? Why doesn't CX just outsource their loyalty program to AA or QF or someone else? I'm not alone in Hong Kong with my sentiments. A number of close friends of mine are all Diamond, all spend varying degrees of big $ on CX, and everyone wishes CX could differentiate Diamond more or just can the program altogether. If CX has a loyalty program like MPC, its highest tier - which in particular is harder than most all the other OW requirements - should have some differentiation, and yes above and beyond OWE. That's how you actually drive incremental revenue spend on your airline. Right or wrong, the loyalty program should exist just to drive revenue. Otherwise, guys like me are just putting money to work in EK, SQ and BR way more than we ever used to or even considered.

Rant over.

Last edited by QRC3288; May 28, 2017 at 9:04 pm
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Old May 28, 2017, 9:04 pm
  #274  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyPointyEnd
OT : I wonder whats gonna happen now to those who moved to AA after they announced their program changes.
That's me! A former PEY/Y who went over to AA because of the MPC changes, and I made the move after those changes were announced, and it still made (makes) sense. It has worked out well for me as I regularly fly to the US.

The only downside, and I find it more a minor irritant than anything else, is that earning by flying CX in all but the most expensive Y is non-existent. But as others have pointed out flying PEY is an 'AA Sweetspot', and even here I have switched to BA if flying to the UK as usually a better deal than CX PEY.

As I now only fly CX/KA regionally I just buy cheap CX/KA tickets using CX Amex and crediting the mileage to Asia Miles. I get the benefits of being an AA EXP at the same time.

I have reduced the amount I spend on travelling by not-paying the CX Diamond Premium anymore. CX through their MPC programme changes has basically said to people like me "We do not value your repeated custom", so after 25 years of loyally flying (and spending my dollars on) CX I am flying other airlines.

Last edited by Nicc HK; May 28, 2017 at 9:25 pm
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Old May 29, 2017, 12:22 am
  #275  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyPointyEnd
OT : I wonder whats gonna happen now to those who moved to AA after they announced their program changes.
I'm one of those folks as well. I moved after CX announced MPC changes (but before AA made theirs) and I'm still happy with my decision. I think I'm one of the few that ditch both MPC and CX. I used to fly CX J religiously on my flights to/from SE Asia (3-4x a year). These days it is mostly QR and AY with CX regionally if I need to be in HKG.

The whining you hear on the web about AA changes are mostly from those that earn their miles through credit-card or cheap mileage runs. I think those of us who moved from MPC have many non-AA international flights to begin with so the impact of AA changes are minimal at best. As an example, I'm flying AY J in to Asia in couple of weeks and in terms of redeemable miles, it's either: AM 125% miles flown vs. AA 320% miles flown (100% miles flown + 100% J cabin bonus + 120% AA OWE status bonus). So it's no brainer for me to stick with AA. Even for US domestic Y flights, I get around AA $-based earning and still get >100% miles flown by buying bulk fares.

So no matter how you slice and dice it, earnings (both status and redeemable miles) are still better w/ AA. In term of redemption chart, I think the two are currently somewhat similar but as sxc and Nicc HK reminded me, AA recently devalued its chart while AM hasn't devalued its chart in like 10+ years? If there's anything certain in this world, its death and taxes and miles devaluation. SQ recently devalued KF chart ... AM next?

I did contemplate returning to MPC because CX GOs and DMs have access to AA flagship lounges but after CX sudden devaluation of AA Y earnings (as of 1 May), I'm definitely staying with AA.
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Old May 29, 2017, 2:57 am
  #276  
 
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Originally Posted by QRC3288
In my mind, the loyalty program should be driving revenue.
Then MPC worked in my case flying in PEY/Y. Unless the route did not have CX flying it I would by default fly CX and willingly pay the premium over competing carriers.

I was handing over more cash to CX than I would have paid on other carriers, and I felt there was good reason, that was the DM benefits, plus CX as a premium carrier. I could have had those benefits by switching frequent flyer programmes a long time ago, but no I stuck with CX.

Flying 140K miles PA (actual not earning rates) in PEY/Y long haul to NYC, London, and other centres is no fun. So losing the practical and very useful benefits of DM/OWE membership has an impact, obviously negative.

Air mile redemption for me personally is a low factor in what works for me.

CX's change in loyalty meant that I then questioned the value of my loyalty, and therefore dollars spent on CX.

In a transactional world based on the parameters set by CX, it was bye-bye CX. I could have stayed as a MPC Gold but when weighed on the value scales it just does not make cents (Sorry).
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Old May 29, 2017, 3:42 am
  #277  
 
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Originally Posted by Nicc HK
Then MPC worked in my case flying in PEY/Y. Unless the route did not have CX flying it I would by default fly CX and willingly pay the premium over competing carriers.

I was handing over more cash to CX than I would have paid on other carriers, and I felt there was good reason, that was the DM benefits, plus CX as a premium carrier. I could have had those benefits by switching frequent flyer programmes a long time ago, but no I stuck with CX.

Flying 140K miles PA (actual not earning rates) in PEY/Y long haul to NYC, London, and other centres is no fun. So losing the practical and very useful benefits of DM/OWE membership has an impact, obviously negative.

Air mile redemption for me personally is a low factor in what works for me.

CX's change in loyalty meant that I then questioned the value of my loyalty, and therefore dollars spent on CX.

In a transactional world based on the parameters set by CX, it was bye-bye CX. I could have stayed as a MPC Gold but when weighed on the value scales it just does not make cents (Sorry).
yea, i totally agree with this and your other post. Where CX is losing the plot is MPC isn't driving revenue. CX is indeed earning revenue, because of their HK base, great lounges, high reputation, ability for partners to redeem, etc. But MPC has lost the plot because it's now driving away revenue.

I gotta assume at some point CX will wisen up...eventually.
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Old May 29, 2017, 9:54 am
  #278  
 
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Originally Posted by QRC3288
Where CX is losing the plot is MPC isn't driving revenue. CX is indeed earning revenue, because of their HK base, great lounges, high reputation, ability for partners to redeem, etc. But MPC has lost the plot because it's now driving away revenue.
Anyone know/have an idea why CX chose the path it did when it restructured MPC? I mean CX was talking about rewarding its most valuable customers so why didn't it go the SQ route? I'm not that familiar with SQ FFP but it seems that formally creating the equivalent of PPS on top of the old structure would've been a better way for CX to achieve its objective? Not necessarily better for the passengers but PPS measures what a passenger brings to SQ. The new MPC seems to try to measure (and reward passengers for doing) the same thing but in reality, if you really want to, you can still get to DM w/ minimal flying on CX. Harder but definitely doable. So in a sense, there's still 'leakage'. At the same time, as some folks mentioned above, the new MPC seems to have the unintended consequences of driving a few folks away from CX and yet it seems to have failed to attract new fliers to replace those folks.
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Old May 30, 2017, 2:57 am
  #279  
 
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Originally Posted by Rivarix
Anyone know/have an idea why CX chose the path it did when it restructured MPC? I mean CX was talking about rewarding its most valuable customers so why didn't it go the SQ route? I'm not that familiar with SQ FFP but it seems that formally creating the equivalent of PPS on top of the old structure would've been a better way for CX to achieve its objective? Not necessarily better for the passengers but PPS measures what a passenger brings to SQ. The new MPC seems to try to measure (and reward passengers for doing) the same thing but in reality, if you really want to, you can still get to DM w/ minimal flying on CX. Harder but definitely doable. So in a sense, there's still 'leakage'. At the same time, as some folks mentioned above, the new MPC seems to have the unintended consequences of driving a few folks away from CX and yet it seems to have failed to attract new fliers to replace those folks.
Totally.

I think CX should at least do something to better differentiate GOs, and particularly DMs, from other OW partner equivalents. Otherwise, what's the point? And most DMs now are very high pct premium cabin flyers, since PEY and Y have been weeded out. But what CX failed to consider (among many others) was that Diamonds in general aren't getting a whole lot out of the membership over other OWEs. A decade of cuts (old days of guaranteed award seat out of revenue availability was the biggest, guaranteed Y discount seat probably the second best IMO, other things like J lounges access even on other metal were also nice), minimal incremental benefits over other OWEs, the inevitable "inflation" of award points and the fact that every other partner OWE program seems hungry for our business. And if you're flying only J, it's more exacerbated because the above and beyond service is less relevant as in Y.

They effectively quite significantly bumped the average revenue requirement for GO and DM, without providing much in the way of benefits. Meanwhile, OWE programs look attractive, not insignificantly because all of us DMs fly J mostly anyway so the differentiation between DM and non status or OWE feels less.
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Old May 30, 2017, 3:44 am
  #280  
 
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Originally Posted by Rivarix
At the same time, as some folks mentioned above, the new MPC seems to have the unintended consequences of driving a few folks away from CX and yet it seems to have failed to attract new fliers to replace those folks.
From discussions I have had with various people, CX knew they were going to lose some and felt these were not worth keeping anyway, i.e. the long term PEY/Y DMs and Golds, but it seems their models under-estimated the impacts, for instance, and these are my subjective views:

1. CX expected some leakage, but believed most PEY/Y DMs would accept being downgraded to MPC Golds, and in turn MPC Golds would accept being MPC Silvers. After all PEY/Y DMs and Golds have in the past usually booked CX and paid the premium to ensure maintaining status, and proven very loyal. Looks like CX under-estimated this leakage. For me flying 140K actual miles a year loss of the DM benefits makes a real difference in making travelling bearable.

2. Also, CX expected what leakage to occur will go mostly to other One World partners (anecdotally seems right), but where this occurs the HK based PEY/Y flyers will continue to fly CX even if not part of the MPC programme. Well people I know have shifted their flying to other airlines along with their FFP membership, especially when earning mileage/Status on CX when crediting to other FFPs has become so much harder, i.e. AA and to a lesser extent BA. In other words rather than automatically booking CX are now looking at options.

3. Thirdly CX expected that any PEY/Y leakage would be replaced by high spending mainlander passengers. Here it looks like these passengers are now flying Chinese airlines as they have expanded their global reach to markets where once CX offered the best option, and also are very competitive in cost.

To me it looks like CX in being arrogant got their assumptions wrong.

Originally posted by QRC3288 I think CX should at least do something to better differentiate GOs, and particularly DMs, from other OW partner equivalents.
Makes sense, in the very small number of CX/KA flights I have taken since becoming EXP, I have noticed exactly no difference with my experience of being a DM. Admittedly a too small a number of times to make a real assessment, but in the past I never got the ‘hidden’ benefits, except the bottle of water and the seat block (which may or may not have gone), never invited to any of the events, and had an upgrade success rate of 3%. Now I never had any expectation of those benefits, but it validates QRC3288 that there is no incentive to be loyal except that if I fly J/F on CX then I am going to get to higher status quicker, and if I am in PEY/Y I must accept there is a ceiling on ability to get higher status but get more miles and club points than flying on another airline, but where is the value in that?


Happy Dragonboat Festival!

Last edited by Nicc HK; May 30, 2017 at 3:54 am
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Old Jun 1, 2017, 8:26 am
  #281  
 
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I understand in the world of alliances you have to have some kind of equilibrium. However, there is no rules in the alliance to prevent you to truly value your most revenue earning clients, which are Cathay DM members. It wouldn't take much. Have an exclusive Cathay DM lounge. Let Cathay DM (and first class) board first (in all regions). Other benefits exclusively for Cathay DMs such as using C lounge even when flying non-Cathay flights, blocking seats, guarantee award seats even if only revenue seats are available, etc. These are all things that will attract people to spend directly with Cathay and earn them the most revenue.

Then again, Cathay management has again and again surprise us with illogical business strategy. For a corporation that used to symbolized Hong Kong internationally? Tragic.
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Old Jun 1, 2017, 10:09 am
  #282  
 
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Originally Posted by Cathay Dragon 666
Let Cathay DM (and first class) board first (in all regions)
OW rules indicate that Emeralds should be entitled to board along with F pax. Like it or not, there are some compromises you need to accept being a top-tier member of an airline which is in an alliance. If DMs are entitled to board before other OWEs, then it's ridiculous for other airlines to let CX Emeralds have F/group 1 priority boarding.
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Old Jun 1, 2017, 9:19 pm
  #283  
 
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Originally Posted by SilverChris
OW rules indicate that Emeralds should be entitled to board along with F pax. Like it or not, there are some compromises you need to accept being a top-tier member of an airline which is in an alliance. If DMs are entitled to board before other OWEs, then it's ridiculous for other airlines to let CX Emeralds have F/group 1 priority boarding.
Is this based on the actual rules or more of an assumption that FT members make?

The reason i ask is because on AA flights, F pax boards ahead of OWE. Furthermore, Concierge Key ('CK') is now officially AA's highest tier and CK boards ahead of everyone. Granted, CK is more like DM+ than DM. Nonetheless, AA boarding process starts with its highest-tier member/CK (Group '0'), F (Group '1') and then OWE (Group '2'). If what you're saying is true then AA is in violation of OWE rules. How come it is allowed to do that?
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Old Jun 1, 2017, 9:26 pm
  #284  
 
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Originally Posted by Rivarix
Is this based on the actual rules or more of an assumption that FT members make?

The reason i ask is because on AA flights, F pax boards ahead of OWE. Furthermore, Concierge Key ('CK') is now officially AA's highest tier and CK boards ahead of everyone. Granted, CK is more like DM+ instead of DM. Nonetheless, AA boarding process is its highest-tier member CK (Group '0'), F (Group '1') and then OWE (Group '2'). If what you're saying is true then AA is in violation of OWE rules. How come it is allowed to do that?
Oneworld rules dictate 'Priority Boarding' only. Nothing about boarding with F passengers.

It's only F check in and lounge access that is set out in the rules.
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Old Jun 1, 2017, 9:27 pm
  #285  
 
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May be wrong, but I think the rules are more like 'if your frequent flier gets a benefit, equivalent status fliers of other alliance programs get the same benefit'.
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