Worst case of DYKWIA...
Nov 14, 2015, 8:46 am
#46
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,978
This is why I reserve judgments until I can get the full story, and thanks to Taipeiflyer for being candid about the whole situation. And the reaction to his story really shows our cultural differences. For westerners (and American such as myself), we value preciseness and we value the sanctity of our body. So when we're told "oh just 5 minutes" we take that more often than not literally. And when we asked for help and the other person said: "yes, I'll call" or "yes, I'll do it", we have a level of expectation. Next is the sanctity of our body, we just don't like to be touch, and assault is a big criminal issue in USA. Police are always called when there are physical altercations, and the police deal with them strictly.
Marrying a wife that is Asian, and from Hong Kong, I have learned much. For one, saying things like "wait 5 minutes please" means nothing concerning time. And it usually means, "I'll take however long as I want and you just have to shut up and be patient." Also, when a staff says, "got it, I'll help you, please wait a moment" generally it means nothing, and it's up to you to keep following up and ask again and again until the staff is free to finally help and assist you.
As for being choke in the throat, that's a huge NOT OK in the US, but again unfortunately that is not true most of the time in East Asia. When physical altercations happened, often than not the staff would only at best play "peace-makers" that just want to settle the dust, never want to involve authority. I have seem punches and fights that are bloody and staff around them just give them tissues, napkins, and smile and make-peace and that's it. Short of a person dying or really needs medical condition I've never seem anybody: staff, on-lookers, by-standers, to bother to reach out to the police verbally or by phone.
So in short, in the East there's a general acceptance of "tolerated minor violence" and "just duel it out and get it over with" mentality.
To avoid this post getting too long I will post my response in another post. But just wanted to provide some background to why there are so many different views on this forum, and why the OP isn't getting much love after sharing his side of the story.
Marrying a wife that is Asian, and from Hong Kong, I have learned much. For one, saying things like "wait 5 minutes please" means nothing concerning time. And it usually means, "I'll take however long as I want and you just have to shut up and be patient." Also, when a staff says, "got it, I'll help you, please wait a moment" generally it means nothing, and it's up to you to keep following up and ask again and again until the staff is free to finally help and assist you.
As for being choke in the throat, that's a huge NOT OK in the US, but again unfortunately that is not true most of the time in East Asia. When physical altercations happened, often than not the staff would only at best play "peace-makers" that just want to settle the dust, never want to involve authority. I have seem punches and fights that are bloody and staff around them just give them tissues, napkins, and smile and make-peace and that's it. Short of a person dying or really needs medical condition I've never seem anybody: staff, on-lookers, by-standers, to bother to reach out to the police verbally or by phone.
So in short, in the East there's a general acceptance of "tolerated minor violence" and "just duel it out and get it over with" mentality.
To avoid this post getting too long I will post my response in another post. But just wanted to provide some background to why there are so many different views on this forum, and why the OP isn't getting much love after sharing his side of the story.
Nov 14, 2015, 8:49 am
#47
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At least for me taipeiflyer has grievances - the lounge staff are negligent and it is not the first time - just that he had contributory negligence in this instance and perhaps didn't have the absolute moral high ground to make the scene that he did.
Nov 14, 2015, 8:56 am
#48
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Cathay Boy
I think at least as far as law enforcement is concerned - choking someone is still assualt here, there's no difference in what US or HK law enforcement consider about this.
I do agree with your critisicism about local staff avoiding escalation to the best of their ability. No news is good news is a pervasive core tenet of Hongkie service culture around here (something our northern visitors are exploiting).
I think at least as far as law enforcement is concerned - choking someone is still assualt here, there's no difference in what US or HK law enforcement consider about this.
I do agree with your critisicism about local staff avoiding escalation to the best of their ability. No news is good news is a pervasive core tenet of Hongkie service culture around here (something our northern visitors are exploiting).
Nov 14, 2015, 8:56 am
#49
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thank you cathay and percy for the reasoned responses, even though they are coming from different angles. i absolutely believe i could have handled the situation better, which is why i did apologize. i know CX believes they could have handled the situation better as well, which is why they apologized. when someone puts their hands on you, it can sometimes cause you to react in an irrational manner, which was compounded by the fact that CX simply wanted to sweep it under the rug.
Nov 14, 2015, 9:09 am
#50
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,978
This post is not a defense of "Bad languages" use, but I believe that is a minor detail in this situation. After all, if someone injured you or your love ones in anyway, I think trying to verbally stay gentlemanly is the least of your concerns.
What CX lounge staff should of done is to not make promises it can't keep. When OP asked for a buggie because he's running late, and knowing how busy or unpredictable buggie can be in HKIA, CX staff should of just said: "I can, but no promises on time, probably better if you walk over to your gate now". Instead of just saying: "ok, 5 minutes" (see my previous post on how meaningless this answer is).
At the gate the CX staff handled it well. Clear reason was given: doesn't matter what CX ground staff says, it is ultimately up to the pilot to open or shut doors. Also, again, the context is HK, which means time of arrival promises means nothing. So if I'm a CX pilot living in HK for decades, and a phone call comes and say "2 pax will arrive in 5 minutes", that means NOTHING. At best this only means 2 guys are running late and is doing their best to come, which can be anything from 5 minutes to 15 minutes to 20 minutes. As a pilot that has a schedule to keep, the right decision is made when to shut the doors.
Heading back to the lounge, yes the customers are beefing. That's what happens when pax missed their flight: they get agitated, they get upset, and they just want to blow up some steam. I can't believe in any CX staff training manual there's no chapter on how to deal with such pax and situations. Just keep composure, let them blow steam, don't react, and help them on what they need to get on the next flight, and move on. That's Customer Service 101. You work in the field you take the best and worst of it, and you are professionals that are trained to deal with it, move on, nothing is ever personal, it's just business.
The only fault (in my judgment), is CX lounge staff failure to just call the police at request. There is a clear assault happening right in front of you. Doesn't matter if the perpetrator is apologetic later. He has shown he can be very violent at the least of provocation. With alcohol and some time to pound the situation it could of gotten worse later. I have seem many times an "apologetic" person comes back later with some kind of weapon to "finish the job". The only real way to deter the situation is have police come, shows the authority is aware of the situation, and give verbal warnings to both sides to behavior like civilized men. But again, I am not at all surprise the CX lounge agents are reluctant to call the police, because in East Asia that's a "big thing" that are only reserve to death-matches.
All-in-all, this is why most of us feel Out-Port CX staff generally handles situations like this better. It's not that they have better training or better people. But it is just the culture of expectation and ways to handle matters.
I bet if this ever happens in USA (for sake of argument), the lounge staff would of said: "you should just run now, I can't promise buggie will be on time", ground agent would of say: "sorry, pilot makes the decisions, not us", and upon return the lounge staff: "we don't promise buggie timing, here's your boarding pass for later flight, anything else?" and send them on their way.
What CX lounge staff should of done is to not make promises it can't keep. When OP asked for a buggie because he's running late, and knowing how busy or unpredictable buggie can be in HKIA, CX staff should of just said: "I can, but no promises on time, probably better if you walk over to your gate now". Instead of just saying: "ok, 5 minutes" (see my previous post on how meaningless this answer is).
At the gate the CX staff handled it well. Clear reason was given: doesn't matter what CX ground staff says, it is ultimately up to the pilot to open or shut doors. Also, again, the context is HK, which means time of arrival promises means nothing. So if I'm a CX pilot living in HK for decades, and a phone call comes and say "2 pax will arrive in 5 minutes", that means NOTHING. At best this only means 2 guys are running late and is doing their best to come, which can be anything from 5 minutes to 15 minutes to 20 minutes. As a pilot that has a schedule to keep, the right decision is made when to shut the doors.
Heading back to the lounge, yes the customers are beefing. That's what happens when pax missed their flight: they get agitated, they get upset, and they just want to blow up some steam. I can't believe in any CX staff training manual there's no chapter on how to deal with such pax and situations. Just keep composure, let them blow steam, don't react, and help them on what they need to get on the next flight, and move on. That's Customer Service 101. You work in the field you take the best and worst of it, and you are professionals that are trained to deal with it, move on, nothing is ever personal, it's just business.
The only fault (in my judgment), is CX lounge staff failure to just call the police at request. There is a clear assault happening right in front of you. Doesn't matter if the perpetrator is apologetic later. He has shown he can be very violent at the least of provocation. With alcohol and some time to pound the situation it could of gotten worse later. I have seem many times an "apologetic" person comes back later with some kind of weapon to "finish the job". The only real way to deter the situation is have police come, shows the authority is aware of the situation, and give verbal warnings to both sides to behavior like civilized men. But again, I am not at all surprise the CX lounge agents are reluctant to call the police, because in East Asia that's a "big thing" that are only reserve to death-matches.
All-in-all, this is why most of us feel Out-Port CX staff generally handles situations like this better. It's not that they have better training or better people. But it is just the culture of expectation and ways to handle matters.
I bet if this ever happens in USA (for sake of argument), the lounge staff would of said: "you should just run now, I can't promise buggie will be on time", ground agent would of say: "sorry, pilot makes the decisions, not us", and upon return the lounge staff: "we don't promise buggie timing, here's your boarding pass for later flight, anything else?" and send them on their way.
Nov 14, 2015, 9:30 am
#51
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Taipeiflyer, brave of you to come and present your side of the story. It is always good to hear all sides of the story; I believe a lot of people have the mentality of only seeing one or two sides of a story without critical thinking. The same info can be presented in multiple ways, and it is up to readers to really think and analyse if they are given the full story.
Nice reasoning and analysis by Cathay Boy too, I agree on most points. Assault is definitely the biggest issue at hand, and I would say Cathay has a duty to prevent this from happening, including calling the police, given evidence of assault in front of you. Of course, foul language and rudeness is generally not ok, but it is as much inadvisable as understandable in such a stressful situation.
On point of timing and reliance on lounge staff, given they are more knowledgeable with buggy timings, I personally would have taken it as a statement I can reasonably rely upon, too. Experience only adds to it. Of course, the pilot is within their rights to close doors, and taipeiflyer has accepted the consequences. I agree that the issue is not on door shutting, but the handling of the assault and the action of 'walking away'. The implied message through conduct is also an important aspect of customer service.
On one hand, taipeiflyer has learnt to not cut it too close, and to call the police himself if needed. On the other, CX should not be tolerant of assault, and perhaps improve on handling these situations, perhaps keeping the aggrieved party informed by saying something like "please wait while I go to the desk and search for a flight/ask for a supervisor...etc"
Nice reasoning and analysis by Cathay Boy too, I agree on most points. Assault is definitely the biggest issue at hand, and I would say Cathay has a duty to prevent this from happening, including calling the police, given evidence of assault in front of you. Of course, foul language and rudeness is generally not ok, but it is as much inadvisable as understandable in such a stressful situation.
On point of timing and reliance on lounge staff, given they are more knowledgeable with buggy timings, I personally would have taken it as a statement I can reasonably rely upon, too. Experience only adds to it. Of course, the pilot is within their rights to close doors, and taipeiflyer has accepted the consequences. I agree that the issue is not on door shutting, but the handling of the assault and the action of 'walking away'. The implied message through conduct is also an important aspect of customer service.
On one hand, taipeiflyer has learnt to not cut it too close, and to call the police himself if needed. On the other, CX should not be tolerant of assault, and perhaps improve on handling these situations, perhaps keeping the aggrieved party informed by saying something like "please wait while I go to the desk and search for a flight/ask for a supervisor...etc"
Nov 14, 2015, 10:36 am
#52
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taipeiflyer, I am very glad you came on here to explain your side of the story which we rarely get to hear on forums when these incidents occur, especially because the video does not even begin to tell half the story. Battery is never okay no matter who you are and where you are, and I am glad that you can CX have sorted this issue out. I think anyone can understand why you were so upset. My lingering thought is the way you reacted to the CX staff (body language, tone, and of course the swearing), was out of line and even though I believe you accept it was wrong of you, I can't imagine you would have reacted this way if you were still in the USA because in all likelihood, that behavior towards any airline staff would result in denied boarding, possibly even cancellation of your ticket and worse. People have gotten kicked off flights for much less here and a frequent traveler such as yourself must know this. Would you honestly have reacted the same if you were back in SFO or any US airport?
Nov 14, 2015, 10:52 am
#53
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taipeiflyer, I am very glad you came on here to explain your side of the story which we rarely get to hear on forums when these incidents occur, especially because the video does not even begin to tell half the story. Battery is never okay no matter who you are and where you are, and I am glad that you can CX have sorted this issue out. I think anyone can understand why you were so upset. My lingering thought is the way you reacted to the CX staff (body language, tone, and of course the swearing), was out of line and even though I believe you accept it was wrong of you, I can't imagine you would have reacted this way if you were still in the USA because in all likelihood, that behavior towards any airline staff would result in denied boarding, possibly even cancellation of your ticket and worse. People have gotten kicked off flights for much less here and a frequent traveler such as yourself must know this. Would you honestly have reacted the same if you were back in SFO or any US airport?
Nov 15, 2015, 8:36 am
#54
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While taipeiflyer should I have keep is cool with CX staff no matter what (and no, it is not easy), I definitely congratulate him for no assaulting back the person you assault him, this is a long call!
I may not have punch him but I would definitely have restrained him.
For the rest, everything has been said, when it gets to close to your departure time, don't trust the lounge staff regarding buggy arrival, they are famously unreliable for this kind of thing.
I may not have punch him but I would definitely have restrained him.
For the rest, everything has been said, when it gets to close to your departure time, don't trust the lounge staff regarding buggy arrival, they are famously unreliable for this kind of thing.
Nov 15, 2015, 8:51 am
#55
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I wouldn't say that's a given; I've met plenty of incompetent airport staff in the states that would raise anyone's blood pressure especially in today's climate where FA's and staff seem to be on constant power trips. Anyway, thanks again for your responses here.
Nov 15, 2015, 10:18 am
#56
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I just reviewed my missus's BP and found they're really using 30 minutes instead of 20 http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/catha...l#post25716350 .
I find I'm less able to respect these requests when they're really just a Cover My Axx pure play and even less representative of what staff are actually meant to be doing on the ground.
I find I'm less able to respect these requests when they're really just a Cover My Axx pure play and even less representative of what staff are actually meant to be doing on the ground.
Nov 15, 2015, 6:18 pm
#57
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kudos to taipeiflier for outing himself....I think his engagement provides much greater context and has led to a most interesting thread. I doubt I wouldn't have outed myself had I been him, nor continue to keep following back up with level-headed replies. And kudos to Cathay Boy and Percy for being opinionated yet civilized.
I admit to clicking on this thread for some hilarious, Judge Judy-style entertainment. But with taipeiflier joining and engaging it has morphed into something else entirely!
I admit to clicking on this thread for some hilarious, Judge Judy-style entertainment. But with taipeiflier joining and engaging it has morphed into something else entirely!
Nov 15, 2015, 8:42 pm
#58
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this story is definitely a good example of how different culture and customs can alter the outcome of an agitated situation.
My dad is Dutch and my mom is Indonesian. I grew up with one culture being very direct and one culture being indirect. With my dad, you say what you want, what you need, or what you think. You get a reply and I take that reply as a definite answer. if it's a yes, it's a yes and if it's a no, it's a no. So examining taipeiflyer's experience regarding the buggy ride, I would definitely hold the agent's response that yes, i will get the buggy, it will arrive in 5 minutes. And if it does not arrive in 5 minutes, then there is something wrong and breach of trust has been created.
On the other hand, I can definitely picture my mom being nonchalant about it. She will get angry, grumpy, and curse the agent for the wrongdoing, but she will do it after she has left the scene so as to not create a scene.
Regarding the physical assault, I can definitely imagine if it happens to me, I would be angry like taipeiflyer too but then the Indonesian part of me would kick in. I would probably agree with the lounge staff to just let it go after the other passenger apologized. I would choose to write a very angry complaint letter to CX later. You can probably see here that I would try hard not to create a scene and to save my 'face'. This is something that, in my very humble opinion, is very different in Asia vs in North America where the slightest physical contact between two parties can result in authority coming to place.
It is neither wrong or right, it's just how things tend to go in different parts of the world.
Kudos to Cathay Boy and percysmith for objective replies and to taipeiflyer for contributing in this discussion. I believe, based on his responses in this thread, he is a person who can keep level-headed despite some judgemental replies that were not helpful at all
My dad is Dutch and my mom is Indonesian. I grew up with one culture being very direct and one culture being indirect. With my dad, you say what you want, what you need, or what you think. You get a reply and I take that reply as a definite answer. if it's a yes, it's a yes and if it's a no, it's a no. So examining taipeiflyer's experience regarding the buggy ride, I would definitely hold the agent's response that yes, i will get the buggy, it will arrive in 5 minutes. And if it does not arrive in 5 minutes, then there is something wrong and breach of trust has been created.
On the other hand, I can definitely picture my mom being nonchalant about it. She will get angry, grumpy, and curse the agent for the wrongdoing, but she will do it after she has left the scene so as to not create a scene.
Regarding the physical assault, I can definitely imagine if it happens to me, I would be angry like taipeiflyer too but then the Indonesian part of me would kick in. I would probably agree with the lounge staff to just let it go after the other passenger apologized. I would choose to write a very angry complaint letter to CX later. You can probably see here that I would try hard not to create a scene and to save my 'face'. This is something that, in my very humble opinion, is very different in Asia vs in North America where the slightest physical contact between two parties can result in authority coming to place.
It is neither wrong or right, it's just how things tend to go in different parts of the world.
Kudos to Cathay Boy and percysmith for objective replies and to taipeiflyer for contributing in this discussion. I believe, based on his responses in this thread, he is a person who can keep level-headed despite some judgemental replies that were not helpful at all
Nov 15, 2015, 9:15 pm
#59
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QRC and Rienhart- I appreciate you both taking the time to contribute to this thread. It has been both informative and encouraged me to be reflective. I am far from a perfect person, but I always strive to be a good person. I am not ashamed to admit it was me- hopefully it serves as a valuable learning tool to all: 1) how you can better handle yourself in trying situations, and 2) there are also two sides to every story so be careful to pass judgment.
It is tough- I see this video and want to cringe because for those who know me, it is a 1 minute snapshot of my life that I don't think is an accurate depiction of the situation at hand nor of the person I am, both as a traveler and just in general. At the same time, it is also an example of how every action has a positive and negative reaction, and I can certainly understand how one could view it as a casual viewer on the internet, and have a negative reaction. Despite my frustrations with both the misinformation from the staff and the subsequent assault from the other passenger, I absolutely do wish I could take back the language I used and have simply contacted the police myself. To see it in such a raw manner, and to read the comments, has been a valuable tool for me in handling any future situation that should arise. Heck, even some of the judgmental responses made me chuckle, especially the one about the "hipster d-bag," as that is about the polar opposite of me. Happy holidays to all.
It is tough- I see this video and want to cringe because for those who know me, it is a 1 minute snapshot of my life that I don't think is an accurate depiction of the situation at hand nor of the person I am, both as a traveler and just in general. At the same time, it is also an example of how every action has a positive and negative reaction, and I can certainly understand how one could view it as a casual viewer on the internet, and have a negative reaction. Despite my frustrations with both the misinformation from the staff and the subsequent assault from the other passenger, I absolutely do wish I could take back the language I used and have simply contacted the police myself. To see it in such a raw manner, and to read the comments, has been a valuable tool for me in handling any future situation that should arise. Heck, even some of the judgmental responses made me chuckle, especially the one about the "hipster d-bag," as that is about the polar opposite of me. Happy holidays to all.
Last edited by taipeiflyer; Nov 15, 2015 at 9:52 pm
Nov 15, 2015, 10:47 pm
#60
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since i am the person in the video, i thought i would provide a full detailing of what happened so that people can form their own conclusions.
my friend and I were in the lounge, waiting for our flight to TPE. We asked the lounge agent for a buggie if one was available. They said sure- wait one minute. We waited about 5-6 mins and inquired again- they said wait would be right there- again we waited for a couple mins. At this time, I started to worry that we would miss our flight and didn't want to take that risk so we told the agent we were going to walk to the gate and asked them to phone the gate and tell them we would be there in 4 mins. We walked to the gate in 3 mins and they had just closed the gate, and the plane had not yet pushed back.
my friend and I were in the lounge, waiting for our flight to TPE. We asked the lounge agent for a buggie if one was available. They said sure- wait one minute. We waited about 5-6 mins and inquired again- they said wait would be right there- again we waited for a couple mins. At this time, I started to worry that we would miss our flight and didn't want to take that risk so we told the agent we were going to walk to the gate and asked them to phone the gate and tell them we would be there in 4 mins. We walked to the gate in 3 mins and they had just closed the gate, and the plane had not yet pushed back.
