s0ssos

In the same way that playing sports isn't work. Unless you're an athlete?
You know that airlines never ask anybody to help anybody else out. Can you imagine the outrage that would exist if the flight attendant asked the people around to help the passengers put their luggage up? Every time?

When you say voluntary, what does that mean? Technically everything is voluntary. Including "work". Well, at least in most countries. I guess there are some where "work" isn't really voluntary.

TRVLUPGD

This argument does not fly. Airline staff, particularly FAs do not ask for help from other pax for what they do routinely. Putting bags up in the bins is NOT their job.
If you or a loved one had passed out mid air, would you rather have the FA do just what their employment / union contract calls for or would you rather expect her to call for a Doctor in the House ?

danielonn

How cheap Cathay Pacific Airlines is.If this were on a European carrier true to their word they would have given a true premium seat to both passengers or at least upgrade their return if none were available.

Heck these two men saved the life of a passenger taking two hours to do so. CPR is no walk in the park. Its as tiring if not more than flying the plane. While compensation is not expected Cathay promised two Premium Seats in Business Class and then redacted it. I would have sent a bill to Cathay for my time which can cost more than a seat since they failed to adhere to the promise. In the bill I would have added in the promised Business Class Seats+My time for giving CPR etc.

Kudos to the two men that stepped in and saved the life of a passenger. I can only imagine what would have happened if these two men were not on the flight.

Just my 2 cents.

danielonn

Which is why I would fly on Lufthansa or another European/US Carrier any day. LH has a registration for Doctors and they are listed on the manifest. Apparently LH gives a good compensation package to Doctors or other Medical Staff who are called upon. I was seated next to a doctor who told me you would never want to get sick on an Asian Carrier such as Air China as the crew is not really empowered as much as we think they are.

I was on a flight where they asked for Medical Assistance. The flight attendant went up to the seats of the registered Doctors and voilla they went into action and saved the patient. Luckily we did not have to divert as the airport we were supposed to land at was only 15 minutes away.

I could not imagine having a heart attack on a Chinese carrier.

exmike

The oath doesn't compel us to respond to the flight attendant request for help. It asks that we prioritize the well-being of our patients. That is the key. And the oath isn't really recited. Typical US medical schools do have a list of "objectives" that you'll rattle off though. That being said there is absolutely no requirement that a physician intervene in a medical emergency when requested outside of a medical establishment. The compulsion only enters into play when a patient-doctor relationship is established. That can only happen if the doctor somehow interacts with the patient.

Fortunately, the majority of my peers would most certainly lend a hand. However, it seems a bit strange that the public *expects* doctors to be selfless, yet expects them work terrible hours, accept less and less pay, and never err in judgement. But thats a whole 'nother topic

stargold

The only interesting discussion is:

(i) What did CX promise?; and
(ii) Did they fulfil their promise?

It certainly sounds like they promised F (or at least something above W), but only gave W. If they reneged on their promise, that's just really exceptionally cheap.

Dr. HFH

You're conflating two different definitions of "work." Yes, what they did on the plane is "work" in that it was physically demanding, no question. So is stopping to help someone change a tire. They volunteered to help.


This is the issue. CX promised them something and then changed its mind. (BTW, I assume that you mean that CX retracted the offer, not redacted.)


Yes, exactly. This is my point. In fact, until states started passing Good Samaritan laws to protect medical professionals from liability in such situations, doctors often declined to identify themselves as such in public for fear of a later malpractice suit.

TRVLUPGD

Slightly OT. Re doctors on LHASA, if you want to travel with a few doctors on board pick flights going to India. From US those connecting in LHR, FRA, CDG, MUC etc to India will have doctors on board.^

percysmith

I didn't know doctors can choose patients.
(Lay expectation again) I thought a doctor had to take "the patient right in front of them" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Mudd and http://www.westwingtranscripts.com/s...anscript&id=76 ).

Until your comment I thought this operated the English barristers' cab rank rule, minus having the ability to refuse a client for being unable to pay the fee (otherwise we can't get non-HK resident women imminent to give birth rushing our A&E wards).

So if you're a doctor and someone has a heart attack on board, I've assumed under western medical ethic requirements he is your patient. Unless there's another doctor on board who you can argue is more qualified to do so.

Obviously the sources I quoted are probably laughable, but that formed my expectations til now. And as an ex-auditor I know about the Expectations Gap (difference between what you are professionally required to do and what is expected by the lay public of you)

I'm very happy to accept the Good Samaritan laws - I trust the bar is too high to sue attempts a doctor trying to help from negligence claims in HK courts but I'm happy to have this codified.

I don't think doctors are infallible. Family experience makes us seek a second opinion for any major ailments here in HK.

However I do feel doctors here in HK are incredibly overworked. I blame the HKMC rules making the bar so high for overseas-educated doctors to be admitted here - even those who were originally born here.

AC*SE

There are a couple of very important differences between professional practice as a physician and voluntarily rendering aid in an emergency.

First is the question of liability. While I am always professionally liable for my conduct, every airline on which I have ever provided assistance has provided me with an indemnity of liability. Because I am doing something gratuitous, it is they, not I, that take the responsibility for the patient. Were I being compensated by the airline for my services to a third party, it would not be necessary to transfer the liability, because the doctrine of vicarious liability would apply.

Second, it is a given that I am outside of my area of expertise in most medical emergencies. (Fun fact: in British Columbia, physicians an nurses are not automatically qualified to act as a Level II occupational first aid attendant unless they have practiced for at least six months in an emergency room setting, and their work place is a hospital or clinic. Otherwise, we have to take the same emergency first aid course as every other occupational first aid attendant.)

Given those two circumstances, I am reluctant to accept anything other than token compensation, after the fact, if asked to render assistance in flight. An upgrade on a future flight, frankly, has a commercial value beyond what I would really be comfortable accepting. I have occasionally been invited to occupy en empty seat up front after assisting--but the far more often I downgrade to sit next to my patient until we are on the ground and better equipped help arrives.

Cathay Boy

Sadly this is true. Once in a group get-to-know each other type community picnic one person got hurt, and it was mentioned another person is a doctor. But she refused to help and left. A mutual friend said, "don't blame her, most doctors won't provide medical services outside of insured situations, they get sue too much."

NauticalWheeler

I have been on a flight which had a medical emergency. A passenger fell in the aisle while walking back to his seat. A cardiologist seated across from me immediately got up to help after the flight attendants asked if a doctor was on board.

The doctor determined he was having (or had) a heart attack. He told the crew we needed to land ASAP and we did...this was in the US. He stayed with and cared for the passenger until the paramedics boarded.

The flight crew subsequently offered the doctor a seat in F...he declined and returned to his seat across from me in coach.

I hope a doctor who thinks like the two of you is on my flight should I find myself in a similar situation.

JeCCo

The pilots (and public) have their voice heard..

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/a......-turbulence

insideman

interesting the Dr. himself doesn't seem to have an issue with CX ...

"My name is David Monks and I was the doctor involved with the resuscitation and co-author of the British Medical Journal case report referenced in this article. I was extremely impressed with Cathay Pacific's handling of this situation. I gave Phila around 45 minutes of my time yesterday during which I explained, at length, how fortunate this patient was to have flown with CX on this occasion. I am disappointed to read that he only chose to include two brief and unrelated quotes.
The cabin staff are to be commended for recognising that the patient's worrying symptoms required urgent medical attention. Their excellent training and supply of emergency equipment is testament to how important they regard passenger safety. I was treated with the utmost respect and appreciation in the following days and weeks, receiving e-mails of gratitude from the pilot and other CX representatives. Their de-briefing procedures (in which I was involved), performed by an eminent professor in cardiology, were also exemplary.
Ramon and Ming, who were also involved with the resuscitation, were extremely frustrated with how they were misrepresented by the Toronto Star's articles. They also commended Cathay Pacific in the accounts that they provided. it is obvious that the reporter to whom they spoke had his own personal and sensationalist agenda.
Well done, Cathay Pacific. Keep up the good work!"

and ...

"Once I had handed over care of the patient to the hospital in Beijing I was treated with such personal service from Cathay’s regional and airport representatives that truly felt like a VIP. I was taken out to dinner, given the use of a hotel room in Beijing before being flown in Business Class to Sydney via Hong Kong. I was re-assured that they would take personal care of the welfare of the patient and his wife. They more than lived up to this promise. I received daily updates on his recovery and learned of how they were facilitating his onward travel to see his family. They even e-mailed me a scanned copy of a "thank you" letter, which he had written for me. This really warmed my heart.

Even after the patient’s discharge from hospital, I continued to be impressed by the professionalism of Cathay’s team. I received communication from their medical consultant responsible for appraising such in-flight medical emergencies. He is an eminent British Cardiology professor, and a champion of the availability of public-access defibrillators such as the AED machine. He provided me with a comprehensive report on the resuscitation, including information gained from interrogation of the AED machine, and included me in the debriefing process.

So, I hope that you can see that I feel that Cathay Pacific’s performance in relation to this incident was exemplary and outstripped any expectations that I had previously of commercial airlines capacity to manage such medical emergencies. Every one of your staff, especially those immediately involved, has every reason to be proud to work for such a responsible employer.

I look forward to flying with Cathay again in a few weeks’ time although this time, I hope for a less eventful journey!

Kind regards,

Dr David Monks MBChB FRCA"

fallinasleep

I think the issue here is that CX customer service gave the parties a one-class space-available upgrade voucher when the flight crew thought they could offer a double or even triple upgrade.

With the introduction of PE, if you're ticketed in Y, then the best you can upgrade to is PE, and this is all on a standby basis. These vouchers are almost worthless in my view if you are ticketed in Y.