Involuntary Upgrade Priorities / "CIV" score
Dec 2, 2014, 1:02 am
#91
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,797
Case in point: I reported here last time 2 Taiwanese ladies argued at Wing F lounge with an attendant that they saw a GO that got op-up but they are both DMs and didn't get op-up, and they were not happy and demand op-ups, and when they didn't get it, they demanded answers. Suspicion, resentment.
I am loathe to defend BA but the one thing they excel at is turning a profit, and they use upgrades/BAEC to full effect there. For example, they are fairly well known to have good success enticing first time Y+ fliers to fly J by offering them an upgrade the first time they fly Y+. Getting new people into your premium cabins is preferable to pandering to high status holders who will probably fly with you regardless.
The last thing CX want is to become an AA who have a list of people expecting upgrades every time there's a free seat. How and when they bump people up should be for the good of the airline and nothing to do with the passengers.
Dec 2, 2014, 8:26 am
#95
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Programs: Marriot Am, MU Pt
Posts: 3,092
Man, I think you're confused...what you mention is an impossible situation. The only reason you'd be sitting in Y class instead of J class on a paid J ticket is that there literally are no seats left in J on that plane. Nada. They are not op-upping someone to J while simultaneously downgrading someone to Y! That's not how op-ups work.
Three examples:
1.) I think the only time you're realistically in this situation is when you're switching dates at the last minute. I've done this a number of times. I walk up to airport with ticket next day or later. Say I'd like to fly on this flight. They say "sorry Mr. QRC, J class is full at the moment. Would you mind us giving you a Y class ticket (with all the caveats that there are no refunds despite self-downgrade), waiting here with us until the last minute, and seeing if all paid J pax end up checking in? If not, and there is availability, we'll give you the seat." In the handful (<5) of times I've done this, I wait at the check in area, about 45-60 minutes before departure the staff come over and say "hey, guess what, we have availability after all." Then they tear up my Y boarding pass and issue the J one. I haven't yet hit the situation where they don't have a seat. But if the situation came up where they didn't have that seat, I would have to imagine J class was indeed full. Aka, they are not op-upping pax over me and then force downgrading me on a paid ticket. Doesn't work that way.
2.) As for voluntary downgrade, there are no seats left in J. That's why they're doing downgrades. They're not paying to downgrade passengers from J to Y and then simultaneously op-upping DMs from Y to J.
3.) For the last possibility, invol downgrade. There is zero chance a GO gets invol downgraded on a J class paid ticket! In the ever so rare situation they do invol downgrades for J, aka nobody takes the deal they offer, it's going to be a non-status (not even Asia Miles) pax. Zero chance it's a GO.
If what agencyguy says is correct, then there isn't a huge difference and I can breath a sigh of relief. It sounds like just the tie-breaker among tiers is changing.
Three examples:
1.) I think the only time you're realistically in this situation is when you're switching dates at the last minute. I've done this a number of times. I walk up to airport with ticket next day or later. Say I'd like to fly on this flight. They say "sorry Mr. QRC, J class is full at the moment. Would you mind us giving you a Y class ticket (with all the caveats that there are no refunds despite self-downgrade), waiting here with us until the last minute, and seeing if all paid J pax end up checking in? If not, and there is availability, we'll give you the seat." In the handful (<5) of times I've done this, I wait at the check in area, about 45-60 minutes before departure the staff come over and say "hey, guess what, we have availability after all." Then they tear up my Y boarding pass and issue the J one. I haven't yet hit the situation where they don't have a seat. But if the situation came up where they didn't have that seat, I would have to imagine J class was indeed full. Aka, they are not op-upping pax over me and then force downgrading me on a paid ticket. Doesn't work that way.
2.) As for voluntary downgrade, there are no seats left in J. That's why they're doing downgrades. They're not paying to downgrade passengers from J to Y and then simultaneously op-upping DMs from Y to J.
3.) For the last possibility, invol downgrade. There is zero chance a GO gets invol downgraded on a J class paid ticket! In the ever so rare situation they do invol downgrades for J, aka nobody takes the deal they offer, it's going to be a non-status (not even Asia Miles) pax. Zero chance it's a GO.
If what agencyguy says is correct, then there isn't a huge difference and I can breath a sigh of relief. It sounds like just the tie-breaker among tiers is changing.
Dec 2, 2014, 1:14 pm
#96
Join Date: Jul 2007
Programs: CX Diamond, BA Gold, Flying Blue Platinum (For Life), Royal Orchid Sliver
Posts: 44
I suppose my gripe would be I do where ever possible fly in I class purely for economic reasons, I rack up about 300,000 club miles each year, however I am responsible for ticketing my clients and co workers on CX to the tune of GBP220,000 PA, whilst I do have a CX bcode, will this be reflected in my CIV score? I suppose only time will tell?
Dec 4, 2014, 3:32 pm
#97
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Costa Rica, Australia, Canada and Philippines
Programs: CX Diamond, QF Platinum and Shangri La Jade
Posts: 50
The new SEC coding is still a mystery to me as it seems to vary greatly.. point in case my two most recent flights out of Manila and Hong Kong with SEC printed;
MNL - HKG in J class (no F class plane) = SEC 005
HKG - LAX in F class = SEC 103
Neither flight was checked in online and both flights seemed to be full - J and F were on each anyway.
Any ideas why some flights its low and others it's high?
MNL - HKG in J class (no F class plane) = SEC 005
HKG - LAX in F class = SEC 103
Neither flight was checked in online and both flights seemed to be full - J and F were on each anyway.
Any ideas why some flights its low and others it's high?
Dec 4, 2014, 4:24 pm
#98
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: MPC,CA,MU,AF
Posts: 8,171
The new SEC coding is still a mystery to me as it seems to vary greatly.. point in case my two most recent flights out of Manila and Hong Kong with SEC printed;
MNL - HKG in J class (no F class plane) = SEC 005
HKG - LAX in F class = SEC 103
Neither flight was checked in online and both flights seemed to be full - J and F were on each anyway.
Any ideas why some flights its low and others it's high?
MNL - HKG in J class (no F class plane) = SEC 005
HKG - LAX in F class = SEC 103
Neither flight was checked in online and both flights seemed to be full - J and F were on each anyway.
Any ideas why some flights its low and others it's high?
In HKG, people often do OLCI. There are also many connecting passengers. So you would expect a high number unless you did OLCI early.
Dec 4, 2014, 4:24 pm
#99
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
Programs: BA GGL, FPC Plat, HH Diamond, IHG Amb
Posts: 3,372
I find it hard to blame a company for focusing on what really matters.
The DM member who flies only a limited number of sectors with CX, and earns all the rest of the bum-in-seat miles with other OW carriers is clearly of less value to CX's bottom line. The DM member who earns those 120,000 miles with F and J fares is inherently more valuable than the one who earns the same miles with A and I fares.
Meanwhile the GO who holds the status because of an Amex Platinum Card, and only renews with the lower threshold clearly isn't as valuable as the GO member who is parked in that 90K-120K band.
One significant value of moving to commercial scoring is that the airline can continues to be lenient with status renewal requirements. A DM who gets a year of status with less than the renewal threshold is not going to displace the high spending DMs anyway, so there's no significant cost to the airline.
The DM member who flies only a limited number of sectors with CX, and earns all the rest of the bum-in-seat miles with other OW carriers is clearly of less value to CX's bottom line. The DM member who earns those 120,000 miles with F and J fares is inherently more valuable than the one who earns the same miles with A and I fares.
Meanwhile the GO who holds the status because of an Amex Platinum Card, and only renews with the lower threshold clearly isn't as valuable as the GO member who is parked in that 90K-120K band.
One significant value of moving to commercial scoring is that the airline can continues to be lenient with status renewal requirements. A DM who gets a year of status with less than the renewal threshold is not going to displace the high spending DMs anyway, so there's no significant cost to the airline.
Dec 4, 2014, 5:56 pm
#100
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,978
I find it hard to blame a company for focusing on what really matters.
The DM member who flies only a limited number of sectors with CX, and earns all the rest of the bum-in-seat miles with other OW carriers is clearly of less value to CX's bottom line. The DM member who earns those 120,000 miles with F and J fares is inherently more valuable than the one who earns the same miles with A and I fares.
The DM member who flies only a limited number of sectors with CX, and earns all the rest of the bum-in-seat miles with other OW carriers is clearly of less value to CX's bottom line. The DM member who earns those 120,000 miles with F and J fares is inherently more valuable than the one who earns the same miles with A and I fares.
Dec 4, 2014, 7:43 pm
#101
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Programs: Marriot Am, MU Pt
Posts: 3,092
Based on what some folks are saying, I think as long as CX scores people who actually fly on CX higher than those who rarely do (just credit everything or those that get their status from a credit card program), it's fairer to have this system.
If what I hope they're doing is indeed what they're doing, it would explain why on a lot of flights with CX GO, I was getting an op-up even before check-in opens. Basically at the 48 hour mark, I try to check in, but the system already shows upgrades to a higher class, sometimes in two class jumps Y->PY->J. During these other non-upgraded flights even with a low BN, I never got a further upgrade.
This should mean in their back-end systems they've already computed who deserves an upgrade without the use of check-in numbers.
If what I hope they're doing is indeed what they're doing, it would explain why on a lot of flights with CX GO, I was getting an op-up even before check-in opens. Basically at the 48 hour mark, I try to check in, but the system already shows upgrades to a higher class, sometimes in two class jumps Y->PY->J. During these other non-upgraded flights even with a low BN, I never got a further upgrade.
This should mean in their back-end systems they've already computed who deserves an upgrade without the use of check-in numbers.
Dec 6, 2014, 5:45 am
#103
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Programs: Marriot Am, MU Pt
Posts: 3,092