Class Upgrade Bidding Initiative - your feedback sought
May 29, 2014, 7:51 pm
#91
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: HKG
Programs: A3, TK *G; JL JGC; SPG,Hilton Gold
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After reading all this its totally a nimby case - tho rightly. It all came from cx not pricing their products right. J/F flyers dont want ppl getting into their cabins; miles hoarders like me want to be able to upgrde with miles etc...
Still, should cx be selling upgrades on the cheap with the price be made avail to many ppl out there? No.
After reading all this its totally a nimby case - tho rightly. It all came from cx not pricing their products right. J/F flyers dont want ppl getting into their cabins; miles hoarders like me want to be able to upgrde with miles etc...
Still, should cx be selling upgrades on the cheap with the price be made avail to many ppl out there? No.
May 29, 2014, 7:56 pm
#92
Join Date: May 2014
Location: VHHH
Programs: CX GO, AC Altitude, Radisson Gold
Posts: 18
As a CX MPC member who has flown 1,000,000 club miles, my response to upgrade bidding has to be a resounding NO. CX seems intent to rub shoulders with other "undesirable" airlines offering a similar program (as outlined in Optiontown). Why "undesirable"? because these are airlines I would not travel with, given there are other options!
Having said the above, I can understand CX's desire to generate additional revenue however if this system is not controlled or implemented strictly by software but rather have human influence, I can see potential cases of abuse. Any CX agent with knowledge of winning bidding price may profit from such knowledge. Think about that one.....
Alaska Air (AS) has a good upgrade program which seems to be working. AS sets a price for a class upgrade (which can be different , depending on the route, date and capacity available) , and based on a first come first serve basis, economy passengers have the option to upgrade to the higher class when they check in on line. This completely negates the possibility of the above abuse, as everything is done on the internet.
Having said the above, I can understand CX's desire to generate additional revenue however if this system is not controlled or implemented strictly by software but rather have human influence, I can see potential cases of abuse. Any CX agent with knowledge of winning bidding price may profit from such knowledge. Think about that one.....
Alaska Air (AS) has a good upgrade program which seems to be working. AS sets a price for a class upgrade (which can be different , depending on the route, date and capacity available) , and based on a first come first serve basis, economy passengers have the option to upgrade to the higher class when they check in on line. This completely negates the possibility of the above abuse, as everything is done on the internet.
May 29, 2014, 9:04 pm
#93
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: SYD
Programs: QFF SG, VA SL, MR Plat, SPG Plat, HH Diamond
Posts: 445
May 29, 2014, 9:15 pm
#94
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 2,172
If CX starts offering bids into F class I will completely stop flying CX! It is already bad enough that they overbook the back and consistently move people up to F even though it has gotten better lately.
I fly 40 paid F segments a year... about 25 of those on CX... all CX segments will be gone to somewhere else if they start bidding for F or significantly overbook J because of bidding.
I fly 40 paid F segments a year... about 25 of those on CX... all CX segments will be gone to somewhere else if they start bidding for F or significantly overbook J because of bidding.
I believe this represents many other F passengers' views.
May 29, 2014, 9:28 pm
#95
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 2,172
This supposes that those who pay full price will not mind or realize that there are cheaper options around.
More haste, less speed, to better sales and more revenue.
May 29, 2014, 9:33 pm
#96
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 2,172
This is a lot worse than the Centurion one-year membership to Diamond level.
At least that one is only one year, and DMs still need to pay for tickets, only that they have better lounge access (no difference if you buy front cabin) and better waitlisting and op-ups.
At least that one is only one year, and DMs still need to pay for tickets, only that they have better lounge access (no difference if you buy front cabin) and better waitlisting and op-ups.
May 30, 2014, 12:08 am
#97
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Hong Kong
Programs: CX Marco Polo Club, Virgin Flying Club
Posts: 91
1. Has anyone had experience of this on other carriers?
Yes - I have used OptionTown.
2. Would such a proposition be of interest?
Yes - but... (see below)
3. Should Marco Polo Club or Asia Miles members be differentiated from other passengers in the bidding process?
Yes, of course!
4. Does the proposed timing for the bidding work?
Yes, I think so.
CX have to be very careful with this. As others have commented, if frequent flyers feel that they are losing benefits they can switch to other airlines. But, of course, op-ups are an unpublished benefit and we all know that there is an element of randomness, so some people get a lot and others get none.
It's not uncommon for there to be empty J or PE seats and no op-ups because Y is also not full. That's one example where bidding for an upgrade would surely be a win-win.
I think almost everyone here would agree that either there should be priority based on tier levels or there should be a discount (or both).
And, at the risk of stating the obvious, it does depend a lot on the price. If it's close to the fare difference then it's unattractive (unless you want to upgrade one-way). If it's a modest amount (as it seems to be with OptionTown) then I'd be willing to pay sometimes.
Yes - I have used OptionTown.
2. Would such a proposition be of interest?
Yes - but... (see below)
3. Should Marco Polo Club or Asia Miles members be differentiated from other passengers in the bidding process?
Yes, of course!
4. Does the proposed timing for the bidding work?
Yes, I think so.
CX have to be very careful with this. As others have commented, if frequent flyers feel that they are losing benefits they can switch to other airlines. But, of course, op-ups are an unpublished benefit and we all know that there is an element of randomness, so some people get a lot and others get none.
It's not uncommon for there to be empty J or PE seats and no op-ups because Y is also not full. That's one example where bidding for an upgrade would surely be a win-win.
I think almost everyone here would agree that either there should be priority based on tier levels or there should be a discount (or both).
And, at the risk of stating the obvious, it does depend a lot on the price. If it's close to the fare difference then it's unattractive (unless you want to upgrade one-way). If it's a modest amount (as it seems to be with OptionTown) then I'd be willing to pay sometimes.
May 30, 2014, 12:57 am
#98
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 2,172
[I]
And, at the risk of stating the obvious, it does depend a lot on the price. If it's close to the fare difference then it's unattractive (unless you want to upgrade one-way). If it's a modest amount (as it seems to be with OptionTown) then I'd be willing to pay sometimes.
And, at the risk of stating the obvious, it does depend a lot on the price. If it's close to the fare difference then it's unattractive (unless you want to upgrade one-way). If it's a modest amount (as it seems to be with OptionTown) then I'd be willing to pay sometimes.
If it is close to fare difference very few will bid.
If it is a modest amount - will there be as many people buying full fare or high fare upfront? Won't they wait to pay a "modest" upgrade fee?
Result - not only does CX cheapen itself, it loses revenue overall!
May 30, 2014, 3:16 am
#99
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SIN
Programs: TK-G | Accor P | SQ-G | Marriott T
Posts: 3,831
As a company, not to mentioned publicly listed, CX has its obligation to maximizing its revenue which hopefully will turn intoprofit.
To me, the bids is just like another deep discounted fare with the condition of no guarantee of seat (or downgrade) when the bids is not successful.
So I guess this will not make so much different with the Involuntary ops up situation for the premium pax. The only difference is CX will get extra $$$ instead of giving it for free.
If someone got upgraded to F, the paying passenger is still get their own seats, meals, etc right? Also there is always possibility someone next to me pay cheaper fare while I pay higher fare.
So I cannot understand the logic.
May 30, 2014, 3:18 am
#100
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SIN
Programs: TK-G | Accor P | SQ-G | Marriott T
Posts: 3,831
This only addresses the superficial maths - that selling a premium seat at half price is better than not selling at all - very true. But this does NOT address the fact that no one (or a lot fewer passengers) will pay the ticket price anymore.
This supposes that those who pay full price will not mind or realize that there are cheaper options around.
More haste, less speed, to better sales and more revenue.
This supposes that those who pay full price will not mind or realize that there are cheaper options around.
More haste, less speed, to better sales and more revenue.
There is price for everything.
May 30, 2014, 3:33 am
#101
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SIN
Programs: TK-G | Accor P | SQ-G | Marriott T
Posts: 3,831
I guess you are making assumption that if the difference is too close why people bother to bids. he/she may as well buy the next class (say C instead of Y, or F instead of C).
It may be true assumption, but you must also remember there are quite some corporate travelers that bounded by the corporate policy. My company policy is all travel in ECONOMY full stop. Even the business class fare is marginally more expensive and I am willing to pay it from my pocket, it is impossible for me to do it. And I guess there are quite some number of corporate travelers have some faith with me.
Sure, one can buy lower class fare and wait to pay a "modest" upgrade fee through this bid. But you must remember :
1. this is a bidding, there is no guarantee that if you are willing to pay "modest" fee, there is no one will out bid you. "modest" is also very relative.
2. this bidding will only be offered if there is still seat available in the next class. I take it 2 points.
- If your (and money other F class flier) assumption that no one will buy F class and wait for the bids, then CX may just decide to switch the flight with non F class fleet, hence the bids will not happen.
- If your assumption is not true, so those waiting for the bids may have a hard time, because there may be no need for CX to do the bidding.
As I said I see this as another deep discount sub class with the condition of no guarantee avail until x hours before the flight with unknown top up amount.
It may be true assumption, but you must also remember there are quite some corporate travelers that bounded by the corporate policy. My company policy is all travel in ECONOMY full stop. Even the business class fare is marginally more expensive and I am willing to pay it from my pocket, it is impossible for me to do it. And I guess there are quite some number of corporate travelers have some faith with me.
1. this is a bidding, there is no guarantee that if you are willing to pay "modest" fee, there is no one will out bid you. "modest" is also very relative.
2. this bidding will only be offered if there is still seat available in the next class. I take it 2 points.
- If your (and money other F class flier) assumption that no one will buy F class and wait for the bids, then CX may just decide to switch the flight with non F class fleet, hence the bids will not happen.
- If your assumption is not true, so those waiting for the bids may have a hard time, because there may be no need for CX to do the bidding.
As I said I see this as another deep discount sub class with the condition of no guarantee avail until x hours before the flight with unknown top up amount.
May 30, 2014, 4:45 am
#102
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 19
A quick note of thanks to all of you for your comments, insights and feedback on this initiative. We have all been really impressed with all of this feedback thus far. Please do continue to post your views and insights.
Best Regards
AgencyGuy
Best Regards
AgencyGuy
Last edited by AgencyGuy; May 30, 2014 at 4:51 am
May 30, 2014, 6:30 am
#103
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 2,172
I guess you are making assumption that if the difference is too close why people bother to bids. he/she may as well buy the next class (say C instead of Y, or F instead of C).
It may be true assumption, but you must also remember there are quite some corporate travelers that bounded by the corporate policy. My company policy is all travel in ECONOMY full stop. Even the business class fare is marginally more expensive and I am willing to pay it from my pocket, it is impossible for me to do it. And I guess there are quite some number of corporate travelers have some faith with me.
Sure, one can buy lower class fare and wait to pay a "modest" upgrade fee through this bid. But you must remember :
1. this is a bidding, there is no guarantee that if you are willing to pay "modest" fee, there is no one will out bid you. "modest" is also very relative.
2. this bidding will only be offered if there is still seat available in the next class. I take it 2 points.
- If your (and money other F class flier) assumption that no one will buy F class and wait for the bids, then CX may just decide to switch the flight with non F class fleet, hence the bids will not happen.
- If your assumption is not true, so those waiting for the bids may have a hard time, because there may be no need for CX to do the bidding.
As I said I see this as another deep discount sub class with the condition of no guarantee avail until x hours before the flight with unknown top up amount.
It may be true assumption, but you must also remember there are quite some corporate travelers that bounded by the corporate policy. My company policy is all travel in ECONOMY full stop. Even the business class fare is marginally more expensive and I am willing to pay it from my pocket, it is impossible for me to do it. And I guess there are quite some number of corporate travelers have some faith with me.
Sure, one can buy lower class fare and wait to pay a "modest" upgrade fee through this bid. But you must remember :
1. this is a bidding, there is no guarantee that if you are willing to pay "modest" fee, there is no one will out bid you. "modest" is also very relative.
2. this bidding will only be offered if there is still seat available in the next class. I take it 2 points.
- If your (and money other F class flier) assumption that no one will buy F class and wait for the bids, then CX may just decide to switch the flight with non F class fleet, hence the bids will not happen.
- If your assumption is not true, so those waiting for the bids may have a hard time, because there may be no need for CX to do the bidding.
As I said I see this as another deep discount sub class with the condition of no guarantee avail until x hours before the flight with unknown top up amount.
You are right, you used the term "deep discounted". Economy class tickets are known to be typically deeply discounted although they are also sold at published fares. Question - when people know that others travel on deeply discounted tickets, are they used to/happy to buy them at full price? Question - how often do you pay full fare Economy?
Again, on your point about deep discounts :
Q1 - Does CX want to deeply discount its premium cabins?
Q2 - What are the consequences if it does so?
Supposedly AgencyGuy is here to ask for views. The views are very clear and are actually very understandable -
A. Those who travel in premium cabins by forking out (own or company;s) money have consistently said they will not fly or fly less with CX. They (as as well the top tier members) hate this suggestion. Right now they are paying top dollar and it is the premium cabins that determine whether CX turns in a handsome profit.
B. On the other hand, those who travel in economy welcome this suggestion. At any rate, they have nothing to lose at all!
Is this what CX wants? If so, go ahead.
I think the suggestion may benefit both Groups A and B described above, but not CX. The benefit for Group B is obvious. For Group A, even if the passenger is "forced" to buy a premium ticket in order not to risk bidding and losing a nice seat, his ticket is fully changeable and refundable and there is nothing to stop him or her from buying a lower class ticket (changeable even at a fee or refundable no less) and then bidding on it to see if it works. If it doesn't, then use the revenue premium ticket. This should at least be feasible at shoulder or low seasons. I am in the habit of paying for front cabin and am actually quite excited at this idea. Does CX end up getting more money?
May 30, 2014, 6:36 am
#104
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 2,172
Brand identity and loyalty is invaluable.
There is a reason why Hermes does not offer discounts on Birkins.
May 30, 2014, 8:45 am
#105
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Hong Kong
Programs: CX Marco Polo Club, Virgin Flying Club
Posts: 91
you must also remember there are quite some corporate travelers that bounded by the corporate policy. My company policy is all travel in ECONOMY full stop. Even the business class fare is marginally more expensive and I am willing to pay it from my pocket, it is impossible for me to do it. And I guess there are quite some number of corporate travelers have some faith with me.
Sure, one can buy lower class fare and wait to pay a "modest" upgrade fee through this bid. But you must remember :
1. this is a bidding, there is no guarantee that if you are willing to pay "modest" fee, there is no one will out bid you. "modest" is also very relative.
2. this bidding will only be offered if there is still seat available in the next class. I take it 2 points.
- If your (and money other F class flier) assumption that no one will buy F class and wait for the bids, then CX may just decide to switch the flight with non F class fleet, hence the bids will not happen.
- If your assumption is not true, so those waiting for the bids may have a hard time, because there may be no need for CX to do the bidding.
As I said I see this as another deep discount sub class with the condition of no guarantee avail until x hours before the flight with unknown top up amount.
1. this is a bidding, there is no guarantee that if you are willing to pay "modest" fee, there is no one will out bid you. "modest" is also very relative.
2. this bidding will only be offered if there is still seat available in the next class. I take it 2 points.
- If your (and money other F class flier) assumption that no one will buy F class and wait for the bids, then CX may just decide to switch the flight with non F class fleet, hence the bids will not happen.
- If your assumption is not true, so those waiting for the bids may have a hard time, because there may be no need for CX to do the bidding.
As I said I see this as another deep discount sub class with the condition of no guarantee avail until x hours before the flight with unknown top up amount.
I only have experience of OptionTown and that is a fixed price plus a non-refundable fee. They claim that the more upgrades you request the better your chance of success, but I don't know how to check that.