Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > Cathay Pacific | Cathay
Reload this Page >

Class Upgrade Bidding Initiative - your feedback sought

Class Upgrade Bidding Initiative - your feedback sought

Old May 26, 2014, 5:43 am
  #46  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: New York, NY USA
Programs: AA 8MM Exec,Life Plat, Marriott Amb,Life Titanium, ,Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Globalist.
Posts: 495
This is 2014 peoples.....

I still think from a revenue perspective this is a good idea. I think perhaps to lessen the blow they should offer a free 1 class upgrade, If this does happen, to all their most senior fliers. That said.......

I just re read through this thread and noticed the following words again and again.

Loyalty, Loyal, Revenue,Loyalty, Loyal. What do you really really believe is most important to Cathay Pacific? And all the airlines? REVENUE. We are in 2014 and customer service is close to dead in so very many industries.

As an Aside.....My Grandmother...so we are going back years, was always a full fare first class flier and round the world cruiser. When AA Began the American Advantage Program her comment was similar to many of yours. "I don't want these people in First class who haven't paid for it, service will suffer" .....I say to you all Look at all the Frequent Flier programs that have sprung up since?

I would rather sit next to someone who had ponied up the $$$$ for an upgrade then somebodies AsiaMiles freebie ticket....The Wierdo's who come with mileage tickets are sometimes real nutters! I can tell you the stories of the people I have flown with in F on Cathay who have done everything from getting caught stealing the bathroom toiletries to having to be tied down with cords from headphones.....Both of these persons were on free tickets according to the FA's.

There are many changes in the wind, if you think op up's, Status and Loyalty are going to get you a free bump to the front of the plane in the future, I think you will have a rude awakening.

Safe travels to all!
NYCtraveler is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 5:59 am
  #47  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 644
Most of the ppl saying this is a bad idea are the ones with status with CX because they want the premium seats for themselves. I guess cx needs to consider what will bring in more money since its a business first.
FAllWay is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 7:00 am
  #48  
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: HKG
Programs: A3, TK *G; JL JGC; SPG,Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,952
Originally Posted by FAllWay
Most of the ppl saying this is a bad idea are the ones with status with CX because they want the premium seats for themselves. I guess cx needs to consider what will bring in more money since its a business first.
the part i didnt like is the bidding part. there's a reason why dont they sell tickets by bidding. why should they now bid for upgrades? just price your seats right and you wouldnt have to worry about bidding to sell an upgrade.
kaka is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 8:38 am
  #49  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 755
Originally Posted by kaka
the part i didnt like is the bidding part. there's a reason why dont they sell tickets by bidding. why should they now bid for upgrades? just price your seats right and you wouldnt have to worry about bidding to sell an upgrade.

Bidding can capture the consumer's surplus, by selling the remaining unsold seats to those value them less then the lowest fare available.

The trade-off for CX is that people who are elastic may choose to fly one lower cabin and bid for the unsold seat instead - even worse people who are flexible with their travel time (like my grandparents who are retired), may buy a rebook-able fare bidding for the upgrade and board only when their upgrade bid is cleared, assuming that the bidding system does not clear as late as when boarding.
LchChester is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 8:44 am
  #50  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 755
Originally Posted by NYCtraveler
Loyalty, Loyal, Revenue,Loyalty, Loyal. What do you really really believe is most important to Cathay Pacific? And all the airlines? REVENUE. We are in 2014 and customer service is close to dead in so very many industries.

If CX losses loyalty, it may losses revenue, so it is important. Otherwise there wont be so many different kinds of loyalty program in different industry.

One direct example is that, if the unpublished upgrade perks has gone away and assuming nothing comes up compensating this losses, my dad will definitely moves his program to BAEC or AA which can get him OWE over his current MP GO (MP GO ranks first when considering op-ups) for the same amount of flying. This can gets him First Class Lounge access when travelling regional and a better burn rate for his miles. This will mean expenses to CX.
LchChester is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 9:07 am
  #51  
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: HKG
Programs: A3, TK *G; JL JGC; SPG,Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,952
Originally Posted by LchChester
Bidding can capture the consumer's surplus, by selling the remaining unsold seats to those value them less then the lowest fare available.

The trade-off for CX is that people who are elastic may choose to fly one lower cabin and bid for the unsold seat instead - even worse people who are flexible with their travel time (like my grandparents who are retired), may buy a rebook-able fare bidding for the upgrade and board only when their upgrade bid is cleared, assuming that the bidding system does not clear as late as when boarding.
this is exactly why i object the process. i guess with capitalism nothing needs to be fair.
then why do they sell tickets at a fixed price? they could have sold at a bidding process.
kaka is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 9:47 am
  #52  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: HKG
Programs: CX DM, SPG Pt, Le Club Accor GO, Shangri-La GC Jade
Posts: 1,327
I go for a NO

While it's understandable that CX would like to maximize revenue, as many posts above has said, this will be a net loss rather than a gain. Simply put, assuming ticketing restriction is not a concern, an E class ticket should generate more revenue than a V (or M) class ticket + extra revenue from bidding (else the pax should just go for E directly). If this is only limited to MPC elites or MPC elites get higher chance to win the bid, given the 24 / 72 hours guaranteed seat, this problem will only be magnified.

If the proposed system will take into account MPC status, original fare class etc etc, then 1. the system will be too complicated; 2. Why not just simply send out paid upgrade offer invitation to individual members with a system pre-determined price calculated based on original fare class / fare paid (i.e. price will vary from member to member), with DM first getting invitation then GO then etc etc? With DM getting invitation first they can choose to take the upgrade at a discounted price ahead (or pay to get a guaranteed op-up), but they can also bet no (or not enough) lower-tier members take the offer and at last still get op-up at gate.

That said, again, I still go for a NO. If CX really want to push such complex stuff I think that this should ONLY be offered when an op-up is unavoidable.

At the end I believe in what CX has always been doing (aside from occasionally being broken by shouting and mind-losing insane passenger at check-in counter): Sit in what you paid for when you ticket the ticket

*** Some more thoughts after pressing Post

By saying "complex" I also mean something after the process is done. Given that many DM / GO are business travelers and their ticket allows rebook or even no-/go-show for free (and happens every day), if such system is implemented what will happen to a no-/go-show or more commonly a rebooking if an upgrade is obtained? Forfeiture of the one-time upgrade fee paid like the luggage allowance purchased from a budgeted airline? Carry forward to the rescheduled flight so it becomes a cheap way to upgrade the booking class? Refund after deduction of handling charge (and therefore encouraging time fixed traveler like going for a vacation who originally may book a higher class fare to book a low fare class and try to bid for an upgrade)?

To conclude I can only say this is a bad idea from every perspective. What others do not necessarily suits CX

Last edited by sscywong; May 26, 2014 at 9:58 am Reason: Add some more thoughts
sscywong is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 12:56 pm
  #53  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SJC, SFO, YYC
Programs: AA-EXP, AA-0.41MM, UA-Gold, Ex UA-1K (2006 thru 2015), PMUA-0.95MM, COUA-1.5MM-lite, AF-Silver
Posts: 13,437
As someone who is winding down the chase for elite status, I love the idea. Would love to bid for an upgrade from paid business class to first on CX this July.
mre5765 is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 1:28 pm
  #54  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,624
Originally Posted by fakecd
as someone said earlier if bidding was needed, cx is mispricing its product in first place.
No, not at all. It's called multiple pricing. You have lower fares with more restrictions and higher fares with few restrictions, and in the same way the proposed (even-lower-cost) bidding option involves booking a lower class and then taking a chance, i.e. jumping through hoops. All these pricing plans may be needed to fill seats in such a way as to make money. Lowering the list price for all may be the best way to fill seats, but it's not the best way to maximize revenue.

Also since the bidding option will only be available at the last minute, it lets the airline fill unsold seats if any---by then it is too late to change the published price. The pricing models are never perfect.

Of course, if the goal is maximizing revenue, why ask on FT what we think? It's irrelevant. In the US 99.99% of people would say they hate checked bag fees, but these fees are making the airlines a lot of money.
SeeBuyFly is online now  
Old May 26, 2014, 5:02 pm
  #55  
Formerly known as jsfrSuperElite
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hong Kong, Montreal
Programs: Air Canada SE100K-1MM, Hilton Honors Lifetime Diamond
Posts: 590
I don't find this appealing at all.

I have retained SE 100K status with Air Canada for the last 8 years and I have been Marco Polo Gold for the last 2 years.

Air Canada has an e-upgrade credits program which works well for Super Elite members, where Cathay Pacific only allows passengers to use their miles to upgrade. As a Marco Polo Gold, I already have some problems when I want to upgrade from premium economy to business class, due to lack of seat availability. If Cathay introduces this option, this will limit furthermore any chance of using my miles to get an upgrade from premium economy to business.

Then one has to ask what is the incentive of being Gold or Diamond on Cathay Pacific if you narrow even further our chances to upgrade?

Not a great way to entice your most loyal customers to continue flying with Cathay Pacific.


Originally Posted by AgencyGuy
I work for ICLP, a loyalty marketing agency retained by Cathay Pacific. We are working with them on the development of a new passenger initiative that CX are considering piloting in the coming months.

For some time now passengers on certain routes have been offered alternative ways to upgrade from Economy or Premium Economy. The process to date has been a highly manual and informal one; local Reservations offices would call eligible passengers a few days before departure and offer them the chance to upgrade from their class of travel for a flat rate cash fee.

In common with what some other airlines are already doing, CX are now looking at introducing an online based platform which will give members and customers the chance to buy single sector, one cabin upgrades to either Premium Economy and Business Class cabins. Customers would be invited to place an offer for their booked flights via a website prior to their departure date. If their offer was successful they would be advised around 4 days prior to departure and the offer payment collected.

I should stress that this initiative is not confirmed, but it is at a point where feedback from frequent travellers would be really useful. To that end, all comments are welcome and valued, but some areas of specific interest we have would include:
  • Has anyone had experience of this on other carriers?
  • Would such a proposition be of interest?
  • Should Marco Polo Club or Asia Miles members be differentiated from other passengers in the bidding process?
  • Does the proposed timing for the bidding work?

Thanks in advance for your help and support.
jsfrSE is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 7:26 pm
  #56  
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: HKG
Programs: A3, TK *G; JL JGC; SPG,Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,952
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9B176 Safari/7534.48.3)

Originally Posted by SeeBuyFly
Originally Posted by fakecd
as someone said earlier if bidding was needed, cx is mispricing its product in first place.
No, not at all. It's called multiple pricing. You have lower fares with more restrictions and higher fares with few restrictions, and in the same way the proposed (even-lower-cost) bidding option involves booking a lower class and then taking a chance, i.e. jumping through hoops. All these pricing plans may be needed to fill seats in such a way as to make money. Lowering the list price for all may be the best way to fill seats, but it's not the best way to maximize revenue.

Also since the bidding option will only be available at the last minute, it lets the airline fill unsold seats if any---by then it is too late to change the published price. The pricing models are never perfect.

Of course, if the goal is maximizing revenue, why ask on FT what we think? It's irrelevant. In the US 99.99% of people would say they hate checked bag fees, but these fees are making the airlines a lot of money.
But at certain outports they are already offering upgrades at a fixed price (comparatively speaking its a more open procedure) sure they can implement here instead of bidding (black box).
kaka is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 8:24 pm
  #57  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Programs: CX Diamond (OW Emerald), former SQ Krisflyer Gold
Posts: 2,526
Originally Posted by NYCtraveler
Both of these persons were on free tickets according to the FA's.
If the person is on a full mileage redemption ticket, or paid upgrade with miles, is that information shown on the manifest? If so, is there a potential that FAs would treat those pax worse than revenue pax?

I'm not talking about op-up or upgrades processed at the airport. I mean tickets purchased outright or upgraded using miles in advance of whatever airport control does.
midlevels is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 9:14 pm
  #58  
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: HKG
Programs: A3, TK *G; JL JGC; SPG,Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,952
Originally Posted by midlevels
If the person is on a full mileage redemption ticket, or paid upgrade with miles, is that information shown on the manifest? If so, is there a potential that FAs would treat those pax worse than revenue pax?

I'm not talking about op-up or upgrades processed at the airport. I mean tickets purchased outright or upgraded using miles in advance of whatever airport control does.
unless FAs always "play dumb" on me, they never seemed to realize im on a miles ticket....
kaka is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 11:22 pm
  #59  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 755
Originally Posted by kaka
unless FAs always "play dumb" on me, they never seemed to realize im on a miles ticket....
Perhaps when the FA said free ticket, he or she really meant free as opposite to pay by miles?

I have had chance to have a glance on the manifest several times, fare class which shows whether redeem by miles is not shown. ID ticket is shown though, not sure about op-up.
LchChester is offline  
Old May 26, 2014, 11:52 pm
  #60  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Programs: CX (elite) and a few others (non-elite)
Posts: 687
An interesting proposition, and I have tried quite hard to look at it from both sides of the coin as a passenger - both as a potential bidder, and as a loyal FF who normally expects to fly in the cabin I pay for (whether I pay using cash or miles). Unsurprisingly there are slightly different responses in respect of certain aspects of this depending which way I look at it. Here are my responses:

Has anyone had experience of this on other carriers?
I have not, although I have been offered fixed-price upgrades on BA flights. I took one of these once, for an onward connection flight, in the mistaken belief it would give me access to an arrival lounge on LHR. I seriously considered it on another occasion (a family trip LHR-ATH, one of the longest flights served by their short-haul fleets at the time) but ultimately decided not to since we already had lounge access and good seats with extra legroom, so there wasn't enough of an "upgrade" involved even though the cost - GBP69 each - was fairly modest for a 3.5-hour flight

Would such a proposition be of interest?

Well, here is where my opinions are split. As you can read below, I don't support the idea. However, if it existed, would I use it? Well, I might. But to be honest, if the class of travel was important to me (and on long-haul - where the Memsahib and I invariably fly business class - it is important) then I would book it up-front. So chances are that apart from a possible speculative upgrade to F on long-haul or on a short-haul flight where it would be a nice bonus, I probably wouldn't

Should Marco Polo Club or Asia Miles members be differentiated from other passengers in the bidding process?
I woul hope so, since otherwise this seems to be a lose-lose situation for loyal frequent flyers

Does the proposed timing for the bidding work?
Well, I suppose so, but see the broader commentary below

More general thoughts

First, some background. I am a few days shy of being a Marco Polo member for 21 years. I just hit two million Club miles. For all but one of the past 15+ years I have been Diamond. I have not had an op-up on long-haul for six years or more. Until last year I had not had any op-up of any kind for more than five years (not sure whether I am the unluckiest DM In the programme! - I got so paranoid I even asked if CX had something in their system saying I was unsuitable for upgrades!). So I have zero expectation when it comes to op-ups, and I pay for what I want, whether that is with cash or miles.

However, one area where I do believe I benefit currently as a DM is the availability of last minute redemption tickets (be they upgrades or full redemptions) and I can foresee that the availability of these will become even more limited (and possibly non-existent) if this system is introduced - and frankly, this is one of the last great (unwritten) perks of being a DM.

[You can skip the next section, a status benefits comparison, if you want to jump to my conclusion]

After all, what are the other differences between being a GM and DM? The significant differences are:
1. F lounges on CX flights. I love them, but I can live with a J lounge. Many outstations only have J lounges anyway
2. J lounges on non-OW flights. Well, if I'm long-haul I will be in business class and have lounge access anyway. If it is short-haul, I have Priority Pass
3. Two guests in lounges rather than one. Well, the Memsahib is a GM anyway so with two children, if I downgraded to GM we would still be covered
4. Extra baggage on CX. 5kg more than a GM. No big deal
5. Extra baggage on OW. Yes, this is handy, but for long-haul our main other airline is BA, whose J allowance vastly exceeds that of a DM on CX anyway. For short-haul we can afford the extra bag charge on the rare occasions we need it
6. Fast track on OW in some countries. Well, if it's long-haul then we will be in business class anyway. I have Global Entry (for the US), I'm a British citizen (UK and EEA) and I have an APEC Business Travel Card (most APEC countries) so although these are specific to my own situation, the fast track availability isn't that valuable to me
7. First class check-in: yes, definitely a perk. But with on-line check-in, bag drop and mobile boarding passes, I think I could survive as a GM with business class check-in
8. Guaranteed seats in J and PEY: I have only ever once had to rely on this for a J seat, have never used it for PEY, and the one time I used it for Y then the 72-hour availability as a GM would have been sufficient

So, all in all, without the high availabiity of redemption tickets, which is very very valuable to us, there isn't much else that would make me try so hard to retain my Diamond membership - and that would mean plenty of revenue (most of which is personal, so I have complete discretion as to where it goes) going to other airlines

So what is my overall conclusion? Bad, bad, bad idea. I don't really care about losing the op-ups since I never count on them and hardly ever get them. What I DO care about are availability of redemptions, and I can see this idea killing that off. If that happens, I would really question whether it is worth me maintaining my DM, which takes some effort and expense on my part. Instead, I am more likely to split my allegiance, get just enough to be a GM and use the rest to get some status in another alliance, or simply to get better seats or cheaper flights on other airlines

I also agree with other comments here, that this could devalue the brand. I have made similar comments on another forum regarding BA, who are constantly discounting, offering paid upgrades, offering one-way upgrades to F on a J ticket, and so forth. It all starts to smack of desperation, really.

CX have worked hard to build a reputation as a premium airline. Their in-cabin innovations have made them a recognised leader in the field, especially for long-haul J. They are clearly trying to go even further up-market by developing yet newer seats for the A350 despite the current long-haul J offering being one of the best in the sky. I can see no way in which this proposal would enhance the brand, and all sorts of ways in which it would cause the brand to be devalued. So even though I could see myself occasionally bidding as a passenger, overall I have to oppose the idea, and strongly. I really do think this would cause me to change my longstanding loyalty to CX

Last edited by IanFromHKG; May 27, 2014 at 8:44 am Reason: Corrected some typos
IanFromHKG is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.