Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > Cathay Pacific | Marco Polo Club
Reload this Page >

CX lost Taiwanese singer's concert luggage 20pcs TWD$500K

CX lost Taiwanese singer's concert luggage 20pcs TWD$500K

Reply

Old Aug 1, 12, 8:46 am
  #16  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: YYZ
Programs: AMEX AC CX UA AA DL
Posts: 2,868
why people don't have/buy insurance? Often posted on the AMEX and north american airline boards, people sometimes look forward to delayed/lost bags .. up to 1000USD covered by platinum card.

Of course this doesn't work for the singer but for other travellers?
beep88 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 1, 12, 7:22 pm
  #17  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.8MM, Marriott PLT, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 9,928
Originally Posted by percysmith View Post
Oh...

But (just intellectual curiosity cos this seems to be a special case):
Is the Republic of China a signatory to the Montreal Convention, or the Warsaw Convention only? I do not see an ROC or "Taiwan" accession instrument in http://legacy.icao.int/icao/en/leb/mtl99.pdf .

If Chang ticketed in and departed from Taiwan, no Montreal coverage appears to exist as Taiwan is not a contracting party to the Montreal convention. Then I suppose Warsaw (which was signed before the US, Australia and many other nations switched diplomatic recognition from ROC to PRC in the 1970s) applies?

Or are there letters exchanged between ROC and the HKSAR to effect Montreal for flights between them?

Or does Montreal apply simply cos CX (based in HKSAR, a Montreal jurisdiction) is the carrier?
Not trying to draw a heated discussion.

Read this first:

Taiwan’s ICAO ad campaign takes off

Then you know Taiwan is not even a part of ICAO.

Then I think anyone can do a simple Google Search and find out that all Greater China aircraft (PRC/ROC/HKG/MFM) starts will a B, right?

So my guess is Montreal Convention applies Taiwan through the PRC.
garykung is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 1, 12, 8:23 pm
  #18  
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Depends
Posts: 14,351
Originally Posted by garykung View Post
Not trying to draw a heated discussion.

Read this first:

Taiwan’s ICAO ad campaign takes off

Then you know Taiwan is not even a part of ICAO.

Then I think anyone can do a simple Google Search and find out that all Greater China aircraft (PRC/ROC/HKG/MFM) starts will a B, right?

So my guess is Montreal Convention applies Taiwan through the PRC.
No heat....in fact probably no real significance. Just to satisfy my intellectual curiosity.

The ROC was an original signatory to the original 1929 Warsaw Convention - took some searching but found it:

http://www.transportoweprawo.pl/akty...zawska?lang=en

Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules, Relating to International Carriage by Air, signed at Warsaw on 12 October 1929 r
of 12 October 1929 r. (Dz.U. 1933 No. 8, Item. 49)


...CONVENTION
for the Unification of Certain Rules, for International Carriage by Air
President of the German Reich, Of the Austrian Federal President of the Republic, His Majesty the King of the Belgians, President of the United States of Brazil, His Majesty the King Bułgarji,
President of the National Government of the Republic of China
PRC acceeded to the Warsaw Convention on 20 July 1958 and claimed its accession applied to Taiwan too http://unidroit.info/program.cfm?men...tates&nid=1063 .

Diplomatically the ROC holds "there is only one China" so its aircraft will share the B- code with PRC (as well as HK aircraft).
But it is a step further to suggest the PRC can contract on behalf of the ROC. That is tantamount to the ROC recognising that the PRC can act on its behalf in diplomatic affairs - something the PRC has always claimed but the ROC has never agreed to.

Non-Chinese nations normally recognise either the PRC or the ROC - never both.
The original Warsaw Convention is an agreement that both parties can be party to cos it was signed before the establishment of the PRC and all parties recognised the ROC. The parties then switched their recognition to the PRC between 1949-1958 so it can join.
This "grandfathered" arrangement cannot be applied for Montreal. Most Montreal parties recognised the PRC only ever since its signing.

There's a Californian case involving China Airlines and the Warsaw Convention in 2002 http://law.justia.com/cases/californ...th/96/486.html . The Warsaw Convention and the ROC's "Rules of Compensation" were cited http://law.justia.com/cases/californ...th/96/486.html - US$20 per kilogram. At that time even the US is not a signatory to Montreal but even if it was, the ROC could never be.

Last edited by percysmith; Aug 1, 12 at 8:37 pm
percysmith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 2, 12, 11:12 am
  #19  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TPE & RMQ
Programs: CX MPO SL, IHG Spire, Hertz 5*, National Emerald Club
Posts: 4,179
Originally Posted by garykung View Post
Then I think anyone can do a simple Google Search and find out that all Greater China aircraft (PRC/ROC/HKG/MFM) starts will a B, right?

So my guess is Montreal Convention applies Taiwan through the PRC.
Can't see the connection between the aircraft registration prefix (B) and that Montreal Convention applies to Taiwan through the PRC. AFAIK, the ROC had been using the B prefix before the PRC was established.
ernestnywang is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 2, 12, 12:26 pm
  #20  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.8MM, Marriott PLT, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 9,928
Originally Posted by ernestnywang View Post
Can't see the connection between the aircraft registration prefix (B) and that Montreal Convention applies to Taiwan through the PRC. AFAIK, the ROC had been using the B prefix before the PRC was established.
It explains the tension between Taiwan and China, sort of.
garykung is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 2, 12, 12:29 pm
  #21  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.8MM, Marriott PLT, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 9,928
Originally Posted by percysmith View Post
But it is a step further to suggest the PRC can contract on behalf of the ROC. That is tantamount to the ROC recognising that the PRC can act on its behalf in diplomatic affairs - something the PRC has always claimed but the ROC has never agreed to.
One of the perfect example is WTO and WHO, maybe even ICAO.

So can we consider Taiwan acceded to the Montreal Convention through PRC? Maybe.
garykung is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 2, 12, 5:38 pm
  #22  
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Depends
Posts: 14,351
Originally Posted by garykung View Post
It explains the tension between Taiwan and China, sort of.
Also between the KMT and the DPP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Chi..._within_Taiwan

Haha Ah Bian was alleged to have tried to rename CI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desinicization#Taiwan . Although even his govt backed down from that.
percysmith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 2, 12, 5:56 pm
  #23  
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Depends
Posts: 14,351
Originally Posted by garykung View Post
One of the perfect example is WTO and WHO, maybe even ICAO.

So can we consider Taiwan acceded to the Montreal Convention through PRC? Maybe.
I think its involvement in WTO and WHO is participatory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign..._organizations . But it is participating as a "customs region" and a place respectively.

Membership of ICAO will be more troublesome as membership of ICAO are generally UN-recognised states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icao#Membership .

The Montreal Convention is an outright diplomatic document between nations. There is no capacity for the ROC as-is to sign it.
percysmith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 2, 12, 6:04 pm
  #24  
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Depends
Posts: 14,351
Originally Posted by ernestnywang View Post
In the paper TKTs that I still keep (latest 2007), I see only see mention about Warsaw Convention but nothing about Montreal Convention. The paper TKTs also state that if Warsaw Convention does not apply (I suppose that means domestic itineraries but who knows if that is intended as to ensure PAX some right however recognised the ROC gets.), some other ROC laws apply.
CI Conditions of Contract says Montreal, Warsaw or the ROC "Rules Governing the Compensation..." may apply to international flights http://www.china-airlines.com/en/check/ci_important.pdf

I'm not sure if CI has fifth freedom passenger flights, but if it did between two Montreal countries, it will apply http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/East...Airlines.shtml
Also to its freight services outside Taiwan (e.g. between India and the UK)
And also to non-CI flights it tickets for perhaps.
percysmith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3, 12, 3:27 am
  #25  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.8MM, Marriott PLT, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 9,928
Originally Posted by percysmith View Post
The Montreal Convention is an outright diplomatic document between nations. There is no capacity for the ROC as-is to sign it.
So the Montreal Convention applies to ROC through PRC?

Originally Posted by percysmith View Post
I'm not sure if CI has fifth freedom passenger flights...
I know as a fact that Taiwan does give up 5th freedom to UA (TPE-NRT).
garykung is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3, 12, 4:14 am
  #26  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TPE & RMQ
Programs: CX MPO SL, IHG Spire, Hertz 5*, National Emerald Club
Posts: 4,179
Originally Posted by garykung View Post
One of the perfect example is WTO and WHO, maybe even ICAO.
The ROC (using the name TPKM) joined the WTO at the same time the PRC joined, and are clearly 2 separate members. You might be able to say that the ROC was in the WHO through the PRC, as some Taiwanese scholars went to WHO meetings together with PRC counterparts, but this is no longer the case as the ROC (using the name Chinese Taipei) is now an independent observer member in the WHO. The ROC has no representation in ICAO through any mean.
ernestnywang is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3, 12, 4:15 am
  #27  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TPE & RMQ
Programs: CX MPO SL, IHG Spire, Hertz 5*, National Emerald Club
Posts: 4,179
Originally Posted by garykung View Post
It explains the tension between Taiwan and China, sort of.
There are certainly tensions between both sides, but I still fail to see your point.
ernestnywang is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3, 12, 4:26 am
  #28  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.8MM, Marriott PLT, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 9,928
Originally Posted by ernestnywang View Post
There are certainly tensions between both sides, but I still fail to see your point.
The tension is how Taiwan should be interpreted...
garykung is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3, 12, 5:06 am
  #29  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TPE & RMQ
Programs: CX MPO SL, IHG Spire, Hertz 5*, National Emerald Club
Posts: 4,179
Originally Posted by garykung View Post
The tension is how Taiwan should be interpreted...
If you are saying Taiwan is part of China because Taiwan uses the "B" prefix, I can see the logic. However, to say that because Taiwan uses the "B" prefix the Montreal Convention applies to Taiwan through the PRC is beyond my comprehension, and, IMO, too much a stretch. Again, the ROC has been using the "B" prefix before the PRC was established and before the Montreal Convention came into existence.
ernestnywang is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3, 12, 5:31 am
  #30  
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Depends
Posts: 14,351
Originally Posted by garykung View Post
So the Montreal Convention applies to ROC through PRC?
That will be tantamount to Taiwan recognising PRC's One country, two systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems. No major political party in Taiwan will support it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_cou...China.2FTaiwan


Originally Posted by garykung View Post
I know as a fact that Taiwan does give up 5th freedom to UA (TPE-NRT).
And to CX.
But is it reciprocated?
percysmith is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread