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sxc Dec 3, 2013 7:17 pm


Originally Posted by Happy (Post 21897712)
If we ever re-visit, Tulamben would be on the list. How do you get to West Papua?

Have you been in Sabah (Sipadan)?

I would suggest you post these questions on another forum, maybe this one http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/asia-460/ or TripAdvisor or other general travel advice forums.

mdevans Dec 3, 2013 7:32 pm

Will be arriving in Denpassar in about 5 hours (providing the flight isn't further delayed).

I'll post on the queues when I get to the Conrad.

Happy Dec 3, 2013 8:00 pm


Originally Posted by jamienbaker (Post 21898141)
If you can hire at the airport, all the better. The point is is he needed it (the link you sent). I'll admit I haven't landed at the new airport yet (it was about to open last August). I do wish you luck, a lengthy immigration queue quickly erases the good mood that CX can so easily provide. I'm probably going to fly SQ in since I refuse to fly the 744 given the whole "we value our business class passengers above those flying First long-haul" thing, SQ arrives early enough that I may experiment with NOT pre-arranging VIP. But I need to examine arrival schedules first.

With only party of 2 and no need for VOA, I think we have a slight advantage here.

Honestly, we have low expectation on Bali and are prepared for all the inconvenience etc.

We just returned from a 10 days South Caribbeans cruise all the way down to ABC. I seriously doubt Bali has any beaches better than those found in Turks and Caicos and Aruba. Yeah, I understand many people ooh and aah on Ubud and rice fields... Not us...

This is just one of those trips we sometimes would take out of other factors instead of the location itself. It is not a major or important trip despite its length. My brother in Hong Kong is wondering why in the world we would go to Bali - to him it is a non-worthy place. To that I told him that so we can cross it off from a list of places we have heard so much and since it does not cost extra, (the award tickets) we might as well do it once and for all. LOL. An extra hour or 2 wasted at DPS is not going to spoil anything that has never been highly anticipated. Frankly, we are more looking forward to the short visit in Sabah, Borneo.

As for the 747 thing, my main beef is just that CX should give the priority of better seat assignment to passengers holding an inbound long haul F over the MPC DM. This is just like AA's complementary upgrade for EXP - the paying passengers (whether by $ or by miles) should always trump the complementary upgrade. The "uncertainty" does not bother me. It seems we may get lucky this time but since you say there are still 9 J seats, so we can easily be bumped back. As long as we are put in J cabin, I am fine with it. If CX put us to Y cabin when booked in J, then I would raise hell. You can bet on it.

mayodave Dec 3, 2013 9:20 pm


Originally Posted by Happy (Post 21898459)
As for the 747 thing, my main beef is just that CX should give the priority of better seat assignment to passengers holding an inbound long haul F over the MPC DM. This is just like AA's complementary upgrade for EXP - the paying passengers (whether by $ or by miles) should always trump the complementary upgrade. The "uncertainty" does not bother me. It seems we may get lucky this time but since you say there are still 9 J seats, so we can easily be bumped back. As long as we are put in J cabin, I am fine with it. If CX put us to Y cabin when booked in J, then I would raise hell. You can bet on it.

Oh yeah try telling that to a CX DM, when AA return the perks CX gives to AA grabbers then maybe we can start having a sensible debate on this but right now you fly for free people better start getting used to having to pay more to fly and the use of better products will soon be coming with a price tag like CX top tier members get when having the unfortunate pleasure of flying with one of the most truly awful airlines on the planet AA.

mayodave Dec 3, 2013 9:22 pm


Originally Posted by correctioncx (Post 21893038)
Not when sold as a 2 class flight

I was referring to the seats

mayodave Dec 3, 2013 9:26 pm


Originally Posted by jamienbaker (Post 21898141)
If you can hire at the airport, all the better. The point is is he needed it (the link you sent). I'll admit I haven't landed at the new airport yet (it was about to open last August). I do wish you luck, a lengthy immigration queue quickly erases the good mood that CX can so easily provide. I'm probably going to fly SQ in since I refuse to fly the 744 given the whole "we value our business class passengers above those flying First long-haul" thing, SQ arrives early enough that I may experiment with NOT pre-arranging VIP. But I need to examine arrival schedules first.

BIG bit of advise DONT rent a car in Bali, you are a mobile target to be stopped by police who will insist you pay them everytime and dont even think about trying to argue with them. The main scam is someone will ram into to you and the law in Bali is this is your fault as they were there before you and if you hadnt come to Bali this accident would not have happened. Its so cheap to hire a driver and safer.

jamienbaker Dec 4, 2013 3:43 am


Originally Posted by mayodave (Post 21898863)
BIG bit of advise DONT rent a car in Bali, you are a mobile target to be stopped by police who will insist you pay them everytime and dont even think about trying to argue with them. The main scam is someone will ram into to you and the law in Bali is this is your fault as they were there before you and if you hadnt come to Bali this accident would not have happened. Its so cheap to hire a driver and safer.

Completely agree. Drivers are cheap, you don't need to fret about parking, and you don't need to limit the Bintangs at lunch. Just safer and easier all around. Agree re cops, been shaken down several times, though always for less than a dollar. But it is a hassle.

jamienbaker Dec 4, 2013 3:46 am


Originally Posted by mayodave (Post 21898840)
Oh yeah try telling that to a CX DM, when AA return the perks CX gives to AA grabbers then maybe we can start having a sensible debate on this but right now you fly for free people better start getting used to having to pay more to fly and the use of better products will soon be coming with a price tag like CX top tier members get when having the unfortunate pleasure of flying with one of the most truly awful airlines on the planet AA.

Why does this have to be about AA? Choose any OW partner. Or, pay cash. Simple reality is airlines shouldn't tell First Class ticketed long haul passengers to step aside for Business Class passengers in short haul markets because the segment just happens not to publish the applicable fare basis. CX defenders always seem to drag AA into their defense, which I don't get.

jamienbaker Dec 4, 2013 3:49 am


Originally Posted by Happy (Post 21898459)
With only party of 2 and no need for VOA, I think we have a slight advantage here.

Honestly, we have low expectation on Bali and are prepared for all the inconvenience etc.

We just returned from a 10 days South Caribbeans cruise all the way down to ABC. I seriously doubt Bali has any beaches better than those found in Turks and Caicos and Aruba. Yeah, I understand many people ooh and aah on Ubud and rice fields... Not us...

This is just one of those trips we sometimes would take out of other factors instead of the location itself. It is not a major or important trip despite its length. My brother in Hong Kong is wondering why in the world we would go to Bali - to him it is a non-worthy place. To that I told him that so we can cross it off from a list of places we have heard so much and since it does not cost extra, (the award tickets) we might as well do it once and for all. LOL. An extra hour or 2 wasted at DPS is not going to spoil anything that has never been highly anticipated. Frankly, we are more looking forward to the short visit in Sabah, Borneo.

As for the 747 thing, my main beef is just that CX should give the priority of better seat assignment to passengers holding an inbound long haul F over the MPC DM. This is just like AA's complementary upgrade for EXP - the paying passengers (whether by $ or by miles) should always trump the complementary upgrade. The "uncertainty" does not bother me. It seems we may get lucky this time but since you say there are still 9 J seats, so we can easily be bumped back. As long as we are put in J cabin, I am fine with it. If CX put us to Y cabin when booked in J, then I would raise hell. You can bet on it.

Glad your expectations are low, as the beaches aren't all that, particularly in the rainy season. My advice is get away from the crowds. Fine if rice fields don't turn you on, but other areas of the island are very fun to explore. Plz report back on airport experience, particularly given new facility is now being used.

Good luck - Jamie

QRC3288 Dec 4, 2013 5:01 am


Originally Posted by jamienbaker (Post 21899949)
Why does this have to be about AA? Choose any OW partner. Or, pay cash. Simple reality is airlines shouldn't tell First Class ticketed long haul passengers to step aside for Business Class passengers in short haul markets because the segment just happens not to publish the applicable fare basis. CX defenders always seem to drag AA into their defense, which I don't get.

Haha okay, I won't focus on AA. I think the answer is pretty straight-forward....CX has data showing Diamonds as significantly higher cash contributors, even in J and Y(!!) class, than partner contributors on mileage J and F tix. I believe DMs are seen as both a higher cash contributor for the specific flight in an equal or even lesser class (aka, what the partner pays for that J/F award seat to CX relative to what the DM pays on average cash for the J or Y seat on the same flight) as well as the estimated cash present value of that customer relationship over the life of the relationship. So that's their business decision "right" or "wrong". They choose to try and favor DMs whenever they can get away with it because they think it'll make them more money to do so.

I saw some numbers from a consultancy recently that indicated CX's DMs are consistently one of the most lucrative groups of flyers out of global FF programs, higher than EK and on par with SQ with a more loyal customer base than SQ has. CX sees AA (or presumably other partner) F tix as an inventory filler but that doesn't mean in CX's eyes they should treat them equally over DMs. Right or wrong that's how they think about it. I realize this isn't exactly in the spirit of an equal alliance but that's just business. Same thing with CX regional F, where they've made the (often maddening) decision to leave F off routes at the last minute the "sell" it on, because a lot of the sales are to connecting mileage traffic they determine is a low-priority cash contributor, both directly (via the contribution from the partner airline) and indirectly (via the total cash earn they're likely to get from that customer flying CX metal in the future). I think this is pretty crappy from a customer standpoint but that's their decision and I can vote with my wallet. I think there is some deception - the idea that maybe partner airlines think you can fly F intra-Asia on CX, which clearly CX does not intend on reliably offering but maybe has enjoyed allowing the deceit to remain because they can pull down some extra dollars from it - which should probably be cleared up.

So it is what it is. It's just a business decision and it may or not be "correct" but they seem to continue to pursue generally favoring CX DMs in soft ways when they can. We have lots to whinge about as CX MPC members but we also have some great things to bank on, like op-ups and generally superior treatment on-board. I certainly appreciate it when I'm on an onward journey via HKIA booked in J, and it's standard protocol as DM to be met at the jetbridge with a new boarding pass to the F section if the onward plane has it. Despite living in HK, I do a long-haul connection at HKIA usually once every 2-3 months and I don't have to bother with jockeying for position or this and that, it's pretty much just guaranteed if the flight has it they're standing there on the jetbridge and handing it to you. Or if it gets swapped in the lounge they'll often call you over. It's nice not to think about that. To the CX members who whinge we can always choose to bank to AA/BA/QF whatever (which I personally don't), and partner members who fly CX often could do the same banking on AM/MPC. We all know the benefits and what they entail and we are free to make our choices.

(Added)
Now that I think about it, if CX did take down some of the soft benefits for DMs (particularly, sitting in the F section or op-ups, two things I value rather highly), it would absolutely be worth it for me to move to AA or some other mileage program. Because I'm based in HK, there's no way I'd be buying intra-regional F tix (not only are they pricey, but they're often totally unreliable!); I usually buy all cash tix, mostly Y but sometimes J regional. Getting J / F op-ups + opening the front cabin is definitely valuable. KA puts elites in J / F cabins when you're ticketed in Y / J as well, which I heavily benefit from. And when I'm connecting I'm from LH I'm always J or F and hence benefit from the F cabin if it's open on regionals.

AA has much better earn/burn ratios so if I lost the soft benefits, there's no reason for me to stick with AM and get CX's crappy earn/burn rates. FWIW.

correctioncx Dec 4, 2013 6:13 am

All I can say is AA Is much worst from a recent experience I hold a revenue FIRST class ticket and they rather give those stupid exp upgrades for free than satisfying a revenue pax.

25milesfromhome Dec 4, 2013 9:23 am


Originally Posted by Happy (Post 21897712)
If we ever re-visit, Tulamben would be on the list. How do you get to West Papua?

Have you been in Sabah (Sipadan)?

PM sent.

jamienbaker Dec 4, 2013 11:42 am


Originally Posted by correctioncx (Post 21900395)
All I can say is AA Is much worst from a recent experience I hold a revenue FIRST class ticket and they rather give those stupid exp upgrades for free than satisfying a revenue pax.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But any deficiency at AA shouldn't influence how CX administers its policies, other than compelling CX to raise the bar as high as it can.

jamienbaker Dec 4, 2013 11:56 am


Originally Posted by QRC3288 (Post 21900122)
Haha okay, I won't focus on AA. I think the answer is pretty straight-forward....CX has data showing Diamonds as significantly higher cash contributors, even in J and Y(!!) class, than partner contributors on mileage J and F tix. I believe DMs are seen as both a higher cash contributor for the specific flight in an equal or even lesser class (aka, what the partner pays for that J/F award seat to CX relative to what the DM pays on average cash for the J or Y seat on the same flight) as well as the estimated cash present value of that customer relationship over the life of the relationship. So that's their business decision "right" or "wrong". They choose to try and favor DMs whenever they can get away with it because they think it'll make them more money to do so.

I saw some numbers from a consultancy recently that indicated CX's DMs are consistently one of the most lucrative groups of flyers out of global FF programs, higher than EK and on par with SQ with a more loyal customer base than SQ has. CX sees AA (or presumably other partner) F tix as an inventory filler but that doesn't mean in CX's eyes they should treat them equally over DMs. Right or wrong that's how they think about it. I realize this isn't exactly in the spirit of an equal alliance but that's just business. Same thing with CX regional F, where they've made the (often maddening) decision to leave F off routes at the last minute the "sell" it on, because a lot of the sales are to connecting mileage traffic they determine is a low-priority cash contributor, both directly (via the contribution from the partner airline) and indirectly (via the total cash earn they're likely to get from that customer flying CX metal in the future). I think this is pretty crappy from a customer standpoint but that's their decision and I can vote with my wallet. I think there is some deception - the idea that maybe partner airlines think you can fly F intra-Asia on CX, which clearly CX does not intend on reliably offering but maybe has enjoyed allowing the deceit to remain because they can pull down some extra dollars from it - which should probably be cleared up.

So it is what it is. It's just a business decision and it may or not be "correct" but they seem to continue to pursue generally favoring CX DMs in soft ways when they can. We have lots to whinge about as CX MPC members but we also have some great things to bank on, like op-ups and generally superior treatment on-board. I certainly appreciate it when I'm on an onward journey via HKIA booked in J, and it's standard protocol as DM to be met at the jetbridge with a new boarding pass to the F section if the onward plane has it. Despite living in HK, I do a long-haul connection at HKIA usually once every 2-3 months and I don't have to bother with jockeying for position or this and that, it's pretty much just guaranteed if the flight has it they're standing there on the jetbridge and handing it to you. Or if it gets swapped in the lounge they'll often call you over. It's nice not to think about that. To the CX members who whinge we can always choose to bank to AA/BA/QF whatever (which I personally don't), and partner members who fly CX often could do the same banking on AM/MPC. We all know the benefits and what they entail and we are free to make our choices.

(Added)
Now that I think about it, if CX did take down some of the soft benefits for DMs (particularly, sitting in the F section or op-ups, two things I value rather highly), it would absolutely be worth it for me to move to AA or some other mileage program. Because I'm based in HK, there's no way I'd be buying intra-regional F tix (not only are they pricey, but they're often totally unreliable!); I usually buy all cash tix, mostly Y but sometimes J regional. Getting J / F op-ups + opening the front cabin is definitely valuable. KA puts elites in J / F cabins when you're ticketed in Y / J as well, which I heavily benefit from. And when I'm connecting I'm from LH I'm always J or F and hence benefit from the F cabin if it's open on regionals.

AA has much better earn/burn ratios so if I lost the soft benefits, there's no reason for me to stick with AM and get CX's crappy earn/burn rates. FWIW.

I'm all for airlines prioritizing their highest revenue spenders. I'm grateful than in the event of a cancellation, my status on most US carriers will permit them to bump somebody off the next flight to make room for me.

My question is, where does it end? Would you advocate a policy where any late-booking DM could bump ticketed passengers off the flight? What if every non-DM or alliance member flying CX didn't actually have a contract, just an assurance from CX that "we'll try and get you there and probably will, as long as no DMs show up?" Once you begin dropping the fences between classes of service, it becomes a slippery slope.

Now, CX obviously wouldn't go that far, but I'm trying to make a point. Passenger buys a First Class ticket between A and C, connecting in B. Passenger arrives in B tired but excited, only to be told "technically we don't publish an F fare on your next segment, but we do have First seats...but you'd have to be booked in Business to be eligible, and be one of our favoured flyers". That's just not good business.

Again, I'm totally OK with airlines coddling their best customers, offering better award inventory than partners, being more lenient with lounge access, and using status as a determining factour during IRROPs. What I'm uncomfortable with is turning away paying First passengers from aircraft with First cabins, and expecting them to understand that passengers in a lower-booked cabin are getting those seats. And yes, this would bother me whether CX, AA, BA etc.

I enjoyed your response, btw.

CrazyJ82 Dec 4, 2013 5:23 pm

Oy, not again....


Originally Posted by jamienbaker (Post 21902701)
Would you advocate a policy where any late-booking DM could bump ticketed passengers off the flight? What if every non-DM or alliance member flying CX didn't actually have a contract, just an assurance from CX that "we'll try and get you there and probably will, as long as no DMs show up?" Once you begin dropping the fences between classes of service, it becomes a slippery slope.

CX does operate this policy, in J and Y, via the seat guarantees for DM and GO. In practice, it's no different than every other airline's practice of overbooking flights. Only in CX's case, in addition to calculations about probably no-shows, elite status is another "criteria" CX uses in determining whether to oversell a fully booked flight.


Now, CX obviously wouldn't go that far, but I'm trying to make a point. Passenger buys a First Class ticket between A and C, connecting in B. Passenger arrives in B tired but excited, only to be told "technically we don't publish an F fare on your next segment, but we do have First seats...but you'd have to be booked in Business to be eligible, and be one of our favoured flyers". That's just not good business.
CX has not sold you a First Class ticket from A to C. They've sold you First from A to B and Business from B to C. How they choose to allocate seats within the Business cabin on that flight, including allocating "premium" seats such as First suites sold as Business, is entirely up to them. There's no issue of "ring-fencing classes" or slippery slopes. They're giving you exactly what you paid for.

By the way, CX flyers experience a version of this on AA, too. As I understand it, J mileage redemptions on CX with domestic connections on AA book the AA legs into Y, although if it were a revenue ticket the domestic leg would book into domestic F. I don't recall ever hearing a complaint on here to the effect of "I was traveling on a J award and there were empty seats in F so they could have bumped me up, but they upgraded their own elites instead." And in plenty of other contexts, carriers can reserve preferred seats in each cabin for their own elites.


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