"Op-up" on an empty flight
 

Travelling tomorrow night on KA488 HKG/TPE. Checked in online last night and received seat assignment 22A (V-class). Checked MMB just now and seat assignment has changed to 11A. So I clicked through to the OLCI page and sure enough it shows checked in for 11A (J).

Amadeus is showing restricted Y availability as "9+" so I have no idea what's happened here.... it's not my birthday, it's not an anniversary/milestone etc.

Anyone have any idea what's happened? System error? :confused:

Just because y= 9 it doesn't mean it is not full. They may oversell it

Don't be too happy, they might downgrade you back to Y ... it has happened before to people here on FT.

What happens if you board and just sit in J, showing them your J boarding pass? Keep 2 copies - an extra in case they give you a Y BP on boarding. Would the FAs be sympathetic and keep in you J?

Why would they be sympathetic u didn't pay for J?
No matter how many copies you print of they don't need to opup you they will remove you. They do have KPIs they have to meet

Because it is poor customer service to offer something to a customer, even if implied, and then take it away.

The sympathy would be for receiving poor customer service. If most people received a J boarding pass, albeit an op-up, wouldn't they have an expectation of traveling in J? Does the boarding pass say it's conditional, and can be taken away? That would change my opinion.

I'll give you an example. Say I purchased a car, and the sales manager said I'll throw in the carpet mats for free. But when you picked up the car, they said we changed our minds, and you can't have the mats. Is that fair? Perhaps. But, fair or not, that would likely be a displeased customer. Just my opinion on how someone would feel.

You are seeing this as a right! Opup is for operational reasons only if operationally not needed then they can cancel it. Simple as that. Will the customer be pee off - yes . But this is not a guarantee. Even as a DM upgrades can be taken away. I personally think it is a good thing to preserve the premium ambience of the j and f cabin especially if there r space in Y.

In my mind, this is 2 different things. Customer service vs premium ambience. I have no problems with even never having op-ups, if that's their stance.

My issue is around customer service. Once something is offered, or implied, then the airline, in their best interests, would find it best to fall on the side of the customer. Not as a right, but in the interests of promoting customer satisfaction. And my scenario would be an extension of that.

Practically speaking, I'd say the OP may want to try 2 J Boarding Passes. Board late. On boarding, the Y pass would be exchanged. If the J seat is vacant, take it, otherwise head back to Y. If quizzed, present the print out and explain the situation, and lack of time to sort it out due to the late boarding. Naturally, it may take a bit of nerve, but it's up to the individual if they feel so inclined.

The difference is what you expect when you make the purchase. Would you be expecting a mat? Would you be expecting an op-up?

Well then no opups from the start will avoid disappointments.

The extra BP will not help. Even if the op-upped seat is not taken by another passenger and even if the BP needs not be stamped, the crew will still have the passenger manifest and will use that in greetings and serving meals.

That is true. Seeing an op-up going away can be a disappointment. It happened to me before within the last 24 hours - first an op-up to J, then back to Y, and I was a DM.

To be honest, I would expect an op-up if my BP said so.

It's been ingrained into me since I was a child, so perhaps its subliminal. When I was growing up, if I was promised something from my parents, and they didn't deliver, I didn't like it. While I may suppress those emotions now as an adult, I still feel disappointed when expectations are not met, even if realistically impossible. It's a physiological reaction. Perhaps only unique to me, but so be it - being honest here. I'm not a physician, but I would describe it as disappointment that is felt when you lose a sports game, even if you were beaten by a better team. You had no right to win - so why be disappointed? The flaw of being human?

I did once see someone who was sitting in J, on United, and someone else was issued the same seat. They did some research. The person sitting in the seat was not found another seat in J - he was pushed to F. I think they could have found him a seat in J, but in terms of customer service, they screwed up, so they gave him F even though he only was entitled to J. I look upon this situation as a screw up by Cathay - again, just my own opinion. What's the difference between a screw up and poor operatioanal process - perhaps not much?

I also have read a few times where op-ups, for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly, have been rescinded. I rarely see folks saying that these were handled well by the staff, and to the overall satisfaction of customers.

And that is why UA has been bankrupt and offer such a "good" and profitable business. You don't make a profit by giving F and J class seats for free. I think CX has the best balance already and don't want them to turn to an UA and AA

So you're saying that UA/AA have good customer service and that makes them bankrupt? What about Northwest, Delta, Eastern and others? And that CX by having poor processes and poor customer service are making them a better airline?

So you think it's OK for CX to have poorer customer service, as long as they pay attention to the bottom line?

I'm sort of doing what you're doing - taking everything you say literally, without looking at the overall idea behind it. Naturally I understand what you're saying, and I agree it's fine as a personal opinion, but I'm not deliberately misinterpreting it to support a position. I can't see the point to doing so.

No need to argue. It has been reported many times that some Airport Manager jumped on the gun and op-up a person unnecessarily, and then they end up downgrade you back to where you purchased the ticket. I don't know why some poster think just because a mistake is made you are "entitled" to that mistake. Say you go to a restaurant and ordered a hamburger, but the waitress mistakenly bought you a Ribeye steak, but then she realized the mistake and tries to take it away, do you stop her and say since it's been delivered to you then you are entitled to that steak?

No. But you could. Would I? Probably not. But I may - I need to see how I feel at the time. It's very easy to say that you'll play by the rules, but when given the opportunity, temptation overcomes intention.

2 things here. Advice to the OP. Second is the customer service aspect. I think the second I've expressed relatively clearly enough, and others as well.

As to the first, I'm not sure I would do what I presented, but I leave it as a possibility for the OP to decide if they would want to do it. For themselves to decide as a possibility. I think I might try it, but I might chicken out, or think it not worth the effort to argue. But I felt that as a contribution to the OP, regardless of what I feel, that it is something they themselves can consider.

Do I feel it is something I'm not entitled to? Perhaps not. But the other side of me says that it also doesn't feel right to be given a J BP as an Op Up, then have that reverted to a Y. If it was explained to me politely and with sincerity (say I was called at the gate or over the phone), I would likely feel differently.

Anyway hope u get the opup, but if u get bump down Pls don't come back here and complain

Thanks. I'd probably feel embarassed if it did happen.

But if I'm game enough to do it, and it works, I'll also post - in case anyone else wants to try it. I'm usually the "try anything once" type of person, more than the risk adverse type.

Make sure u don't earn itself NsU status

I think we are better back to the topic...
Arguing on a certain PERSONAL opinion is a waste of time. Nothing can be accomplished.

^

What did availability look like before OLCI opened, do you know? I've found that frequently in the day or so before departure, availability on ExpertFlyer etc appears to swing wide open even if the flight is probably overbooked. Would be interested to know why, if anyone knows. My assumption has been either that once a flight opens for check-in some other inventory-management system kicks in that ExpertFlyer doesn't see, or they "open" all fare buckets to facilitate same-day changes for irrops.

Even when Y is overbooked, the premium cabins may not be. CX will release those inventory also to Y close to departure in order to maximise their revenue. Therefore J9...Y0 ... can become J9...Y5 and eventually to J9...Y9... If someone buys a J ticket, CX will be happy to sell it. If the person buys Y, CX will then figure out the lucky person for op-up.

Also, sometimes CX may hold some J and Y seats for GO & DM members, and will release them when fewer than expected take advantage of their seat guarantees.

Yup. The manifest is key. I was on a BA flight a few years back in CW when a lady seated herself in J (flight was pretty empty I recall). She took over that seat with authority, so much so that when she sat down I assumed she was a regular J pax. She was spotted only after we had taken off by the cabin crew, who were taking roll call for meal service wanted to know who she was, since nobody was assigned to that seat. She was told to get back to EY after they sorted it out.

If you are talking about KA488/21DEC, I see the Y fully or over-booked.

Less than 4 hours to your flight OP, please report back!

Seems like this provoked quite a lot of discussion!

In the end I turned up to in-town check in at HK station on the morning of the flight (around T-12) and was issued the J BP. Agent said "because the flight is full, we have upgraded you to Business Class."

No downgrade at the gate, luckily. Didn't walk back to see whether Y was, in fact, full. But I heard the purser saying to the pax behind who had ordered a special meal whether it was ok to serve the economy special meal to her in J ("because you were upgraded from Economy to Business"). So clearly there were other op-ups.

In response to the discussion re. disappointment at having an op-up revoked, I think that although I'd clearly be disappointed (especially if it were a long-haul flight), I certainly wouldn't kick up a fuss. I might think that their op-up system could be better organised (for example, delaying the decision to op-up pax instead of issuing a J BP and revoking it), but that's about it.

So which meal did you receive when you were in J? Given that yours would have been a 'standard' one...

Yes, other that can be a disappointment. While I was never handed a op-upped BP and then revoked, it did happen in my seat assignments after the OLCI.

At least in the past, CX did most op-ups at the gates, even for DM. Lately they seem to do more at the check-in counter. They may already know of the situation through OLCI, and start op-up early to avoid chaos at the gate.

All op-ups for me happened at check-in, except a couple of times. I always wondered if that's because some last minute Y-fare sales that caused the need to op-up in last minute?

That can be the case, or because of waitlist (including award) clearing, or plainly because the flight is way overbooked. Op-ups at check-in happen quite often these days. >5 years ago, op-ups (especially for ex-HKG flights) often happened at the gate. They would have a stack of BPs (sometimes even 20-30 of them) at the gate. When a BP is rejected, the gate agent would call out the BN and someone would scramble to find the replacement.

I think doing that at check-in (or at a lounge) can reduce the chaos at the gate, especially if a passenger prefers to sit with his/her traveling companions and declines the op-up.

Remember there's also standby staff travel, that's why last minute adjustments are required

I think it's because some people check-in just before it closes.

It could happen. But, in most of the cases it is because of the flight has been oversold at least 4 days before departure. The expected no-show did not happen (for certain route at certain period the airline expect certain number of sold Y seats not to be taken, often the prediction can be wrong or just close). The second possibility is reconfirmed groups seats are underestimated. When a group reserved spaces before final confirmation of the number of passengers, the airline already sold large number of Y seats to FITs at a higher price. When the group final pax lists come higher than the estimated airline have a situation of lower yield as well as potential oversold. If J is terribly empty the airline normally will try to sell more high Y fare to mark up the yield without turning away the group passengers. Last minute Y fare in international travel nowadays are rare in between.

Standby staff travel can reduce op-up chance for other passengers:
* I was on a HKG-SFO flight about 4 years ago. J was quite open. Suddenly it showed J0 C0 D0 I0. I thought I had a chance to get an op-up to F. In the end, CX's COO took the F, and I stayed in J with about 20 CX staff members :(.
* CX's own ID travelers can also travel in any available cabins.

It depends on the seniority not everyone is like the COO and not every staff is eligible to premium cabins

That is probably the case, but when Y is full, CX needs not put staff in Y and op-up others.

One time I was sitting in Y with my adjacent seat occupied. The ISM moved a passenger 2-3 rows behind to J, and moved me to his seat - as his adjacent seat was vacant. The passenger's wife is a crew member on the flight. Even an CX ID passenger can take a seat in J before any op-up occurs.