Dec 27, 2014, 9:43 pm
Last edit by: JDiver
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QZ8501 Moderator team: JDiver, cblaisd, Moderator2, starflyergold, armagebedar
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AirAsia Indonesia has verified QZ8501 has reported missing with 162 aboard. Departed Surabaya, Indonesia 0532 local time, last contact with ATC 0714 local Singapore time / 0614 Western Indonesia Time Sunday, 28 Dec 2014. QZ8501 was due to arrive SIN 0837 local time.
Surabaya, East Java, Indonesia is on Western Indonesia Time (WIB), UTC +7.
Originally Posted by AirAsia Indonesia FaceBook page
AirAsia Indonesia regrets to confirm that flight QZ8501 from Surabaya to Singapore has lost contact with air traffic control at 07:24 (Surabaya LT) this morning. The flight took off from Juanda International Airport in Surabaya at 0535 hours.
Search and rescue operations are being conducted under the guidance of The Indonesia of Civil Aviation Authority (CAA). AirAsia Indonesia is cooperating fully and assisting the investigation in every possible way.
The aircraft was on the submitted flight plan route and was requesting deviation due to en route weather before communication with the aircraft was lost while it was still under the control of the Indonesian Air Traffic Control (ATC).
The aircraft had undergone its last scheduled maintenance on 16 November 2014.
AirAsia has established an Emergency Call Centre that is available for family or friends of those who may have been on board the aircraft. The number is: +622129850801.
Originally Posted by gpeso8
I'm in Indonesia right now and local TV is reporting that an emergency exit door was located they are also showing a body in the water (blurred out).
Originally Posted by BBC 30 Dec 2014
Indonesian officials have confirmed that bodies and debris found in the Java Sea off Borneo are from AirAsia flight QZ8501 that went missing on Sunday, a statement by AirAsia says.
The AirAsia statement said the remains were found in the Karimata Strait, south-west of Pangkalan Bun in the Borneo province of Central Kalimantan.
The AirAsia statement said the remains were found in the Karimata Strait, south-west of Pangkalan Bun in the Borneo province of Central Kalimantan.
Originally Posted by Aviation Herald
On Dec 31st 2014 the chairman of Indonesia's Search and Rescue Service stated in an evening press conference, that earlier reports about the fuselage having been located have been incorrect, the search is still ongoing, so far - referring to a report by CNN hitting global headlines - there are no sonar images of the fuselage as well. Correcting other media reports the chairman stressed that none of the bodies recovered so far was wearing a life vest. All valid information concerning QZ-8501 only and only comes from one source, namely the Search and Rescue Service which is currently in charge of the entire operation, the chairman stated with reference to the current information chaos.
AirAsia updates on QZ8501 http://qz8501.airasia.com/index.html
Aviation Herald: http://avherald.com/h?article=47f6abc7
BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-30620647
Please do not post speculation or unconfirmed information in this wiki or thread.
AirAsia Indonesia QZ8501 SUB to SIN reported missing 0724 Sun 28 Dec 2014
Jan 2, 2015, 10:12 pm
#406
Join Date: Mar 2011
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And back to news instead of speculation for a post... Two "large objects" have been found underwater. Here's to hoping to a speedy recovery and more closure for the families.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0K900D20150103
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0K900D20150103
Jan 2, 2015, 10:21 pm
#407
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 537
And back to news instead of speculation for a post... Two "large objects" have been found underwater. Here's to hoping to a speedy recovery and more closure for the families.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0K900D20150103
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0K900D20150103
Jan 2, 2015, 11:08 pm
#409
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Agreed.
I can visualize the editors already:
"Everybody's assignment this week is to write an AirAsia article that will keep the reader thinking we're on top of this!"
Even with Business Week, we get figures pretending to be meaningful, no facts, and plenty of uninformed fluff, interspersed with an occasional accurate, if general, bit.
E.g. "There has been little evidence that Indonesian authorities have addressed long-standing concerns about flight safety in and around the archipelago. Lion Air alone has suffered seven accidents in the past decade, a horrendous number. (By contrast, all major U.S. airlines combined, which fly exponentially more flights daily than Lion Air, have suffered a total of three serious crashes in the past decade.) These accidents included a crash near the Indonesian city of Solo that killed 25 people, a 2013 crash where a plane trying to land in Bali in the rain smashed into the ocean short of the runway, and an accident earlier this year where a Lion Air plane coming into Bali landed so poorly it bounced up and down four times on the runway, severely injuring passengers. Meanwhile, Mandala Airlines crashed in Medan, Indonesia, in 2005, killing 105 people; an Adam Air flight in Sulawesi crashed into the sea in 2007, killing 102 people (the worst accident ever involving a Boeing 747-700); and a Garuda flight in 2007 overshot the runway in Yogyakarta and crashed, killing 22 people."
Meaningless and speculative in this context, but hey, flash a lot of figures and we'll look brilliant. How many incidents has AirAsia Indonesia had? Any safety or practices and policy problems noted? But... look at Lion Air!
I have to admit I do stay away from the "Boeing 747-700" myself. Flying pickle barrels, I say!
"Indonesia, meanwhile, though a real democracy, also has been reluctant to allow outsiders complete access when working on search-and-rescue missions, perhaps because the government fears exposing the ineptitude of some of the country’s air regulators and controllers."
Hem, how did SAR assets of Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, USA et al get involved so quickly? Oh, they were ASKED TO by the Indonesian authorities. Can't refute current facts, so let's try some "then, not now" salted with some "probably guilty by implication".
Let's see when the FDR and CVR are found, to which agency they are handed to for investigation and how the results are handled.
At this point, and I am often a severe critic, I think the incident has been handled as well as possible, given the circumstances - by AirAsia Indonesia from CEO Fernandes on down, and even by the Indonesian authorities.
My thoughts and hopes are with many who were looking forward to a New Year celebration who are now dealing with the sudden loss of loved ones.
I can visualize the editors already:
"Everybody's assignment this week is to write an AirAsia article that will keep the reader thinking we're on top of this!"
Even with Business Week, we get figures pretending to be meaningful, no facts, and plenty of uninformed fluff, interspersed with an occasional accurate, if general, bit.
E.g. "There has been little evidence that Indonesian authorities have addressed long-standing concerns about flight safety in and around the archipelago. Lion Air alone has suffered seven accidents in the past decade, a horrendous number. (By contrast, all major U.S. airlines combined, which fly exponentially more flights daily than Lion Air, have suffered a total of three serious crashes in the past decade.) These accidents included a crash near the Indonesian city of Solo that killed 25 people, a 2013 crash where a plane trying to land in Bali in the rain smashed into the ocean short of the runway, and an accident earlier this year where a Lion Air plane coming into Bali landed so poorly it bounced up and down four times on the runway, severely injuring passengers. Meanwhile, Mandala Airlines crashed in Medan, Indonesia, in 2005, killing 105 people; an Adam Air flight in Sulawesi crashed into the sea in 2007, killing 102 people (the worst accident ever involving a Boeing 747-700); and a Garuda flight in 2007 overshot the runway in Yogyakarta and crashed, killing 22 people."
Meaningless and speculative in this context, but hey, flash a lot of figures and we'll look brilliant. How many incidents has AirAsia Indonesia had? Any safety or practices and policy problems noted? But... look at Lion Air!
I have to admit I do stay away from the "Boeing 747-700" myself. Flying pickle barrels, I say!
"Indonesia, meanwhile, though a real democracy, also has been reluctant to allow outsiders complete access when working on search-and-rescue missions, perhaps because the government fears exposing the ineptitude of some of the country’s air regulators and controllers."
Hem, how did SAR assets of Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, USA et al get involved so quickly? Oh, they were ASKED TO by the Indonesian authorities. Can't refute current facts, so let's try some "then, not now" salted with some "probably guilty by implication".
Let's see when the FDR and CVR are found, to which agency they are handed to for investigation and how the results are handled.
At this point, and I am often a severe critic, I think the incident has been handled as well as possible, given the circumstances - by AirAsia Indonesia from CEO Fernandes on down, and even by the Indonesian authorities.
My thoughts and hopes are with many who were looking forward to a New Year celebration who are now dealing with the sudden loss of loved ones.
Those radar images looked pretty convincing, and all the rain of these last weeks had to come from somewhere.
But as with most airline accidents, it's likely to be a combination of factors... Something as bad weather + some instrument mishap + a bad decision by the crew, that will be the cause. A bit of turbulence alone is not likely to crash an aircraft.
But who knows, we will most likely know in a while.
But as with most airline accidents, it's likely to be a combination of factors... Something as bad weather + some instrument mishap + a bad decision by the crew, that will be the cause. A bit of turbulence alone is not likely to crash an aircraft.
But who knows, we will most likely know in a while.
Over fifty Indonesian Navy divers (on the ship Banda Aceh) await improving weather so they can investigate a possible section of aircraft reported by a SAR pilot. (Unlike MH370's estimated ocean impact area, this area of the Java Sea is sufficiently shallow divers can be used - assuming better surface conditions and improved underwater visibility. Rain causes fast-running, silt-laden rivers, which disperse their loads into the water and impair visibility - and bring possible Tiger Shark danger, as they can habituated river mouths looking for carrion.)
Nine people's bodies have been confirmed as recovered to date, and the Flight Attendant recovered has received her funeral and been laid to rest.
Nine people's bodies have been confirmed as recovered to date, and the Flight Attendant recovered has received her funeral and been laid to rest.
The first post was quoting an article, the final post talked about terrestrial sediment muddying up near shore environments during a storm. The middle didn't state by any stretch that rain was a cause of the accident.
You might want to adhere to your own advice about "making rubbish up".
Jan 3, 2015, 3:45 am
#410
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIXman
Some news reports are saying that the plane was flying on an unauthorized schedule.
Example: http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2...e-unauthorised
Is that possible? That no one would even notice?
Given the sometimes chaotic state of air transportation in Indonesia, that wouldn't surprise me. Nor the fact it has taken this long for the local authorities to realize that. Leaving aside the actual flight for the moment, the rapid state of expansion for Indonesian air travel, coupled with shortage in skilled labour to service this expansion as well as endemic corruption, questions of competence can be raised regarding the management of Indonesian air travel in general.
Originally Posted by KIXman
Some news reports are saying that the plane was flying on an unauthorized schedule.
Example: http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2...e-unauthorised
Is that possible? That no one would even notice?
Given the sometimes chaotic state of air transportation in Indonesia, that wouldn't surprise me. Nor the fact it has taken this long for the local authorities to realize that. Leaving aside the actual flight for the moment, the rapid state of expansion for Indonesian air travel, coupled with shortage in skilled labour to service this expansion as well as endemic corruption, questions of competence can be raised regarding the management of Indonesian air travel in general.
If Indonesia Airasia's license is suspended, travellers will need to choose those more risky flights and perhaps an increase in ticket fare.
Jan 3, 2015, 4:06 am
#411
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 537
Like I said, Indonesian incompetence in regards to air transportation is not new or surprising. Still, I have to wonder about one thing. What do the Indonesian authorities mean by "no authorization" for this flight? If they mean by not allowing them to fly that route on that day, how did they manage to take off in the first place? Won't ATC have to give clearance to the flight plan filed by AirAsia? And isn't it the job of AirAsia's flight dispatcher to file the plan with the relevant regulatory authorities beforehand? Or was there even a flight plan filed in the first place?
Even supposing the Indonesian Civil Aviation Authorities are incompetent (which they often are), are they so stupid and incompetent to the point as to approve a flight plan when the airline isn't even suppose to fly that route on that day? Surely that is not rocket science, and definitely not that hard to realize. Or worse, did they let AirAsia take off with no flight plan filed? Hard to imagine, but with the state of air travel in Indonesia, yes, it wouldn't surprise me. The only question is how the Surabaya ATC can be this slip shot as to not even know this.
Even supposing the Indonesian Civil Aviation Authorities are incompetent (which they often are), are they so stupid and incompetent to the point as to approve a flight plan when the airline isn't even suppose to fly that route on that day? Surely that is not rocket science, and definitely not that hard to realize. Or worse, did they let AirAsia take off with no flight plan filed? Hard to imagine, but with the state of air travel in Indonesia, yes, it wouldn't surprise me. The only question is how the Surabaya ATC can be this slip shot as to not even know this.
Jan 3, 2015, 4:40 am
#412
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,257
Or were you simply searching for the word 'rain' and came up these posts as evidence for your baseless hypothesis?
You might want to adhere to your own advice about "making rubbish up".
To make matters worse, posts #353 and #361 actually do posit rain as a hypothetical candidate or contributor which makes your accusation doubly moot.
Jan 3, 2015, 8:02 am
#413
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LGA - JFK
Programs: UA, AA, DL, B6, CX, KE, Latitude, VIFP, Crown & Anchor, etc.
Posts: 2,589
SAR said 4 "large" parts of the missing plane were "found"
Per SIN's latest Strait Times, weather/sea conditions expected to improve on Sunday (it's late Saturday evening) with 1.5 to 2 m waves - SAR reported 4 "large" objects believed to the sections of the QZ8501 @30 meters below on the sea floor (one @ 18 meters/60 feet) Okay, locate & retrieve the boxes and those who perished to bring them "home" & do the investigative facts-finding - bless them all & grateful to those who worked tirelessly & continuously over the New Year - a 2nd. US ship on station & even Russia's maritime assets arrived on the multi-national humanitarian efforts.
Last edited by Letitride3c; Jan 3, 2015 at 8:38 am
Jan 3, 2015, 8:20 am
#414
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 282
Aljazeera is also reporting that 4 large objects has been located, As of now most of the media is focused on the permit to flight that specific flight route on that specific day (No permission / authorization was issued) this sounds very fishy, I am not an aviation expert but even with a small boat if you going far from your port you have to report your travel plans... How does a plane with +160 people can depart an airport without such authorizations???
Jan 3, 2015, 9:00 am
#415
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
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Posts: 62,948
The first post was quoting an article, the final post talked about terrestrial sediment muddying up near shore environments during a storm. The middle didn't state by any stretch that rain was a cause of the accident.
You might want to adhere to your own advice about "making rubbish up".
JDiver, Senior ModeratorI said rains bring sediment and impairs visibility for searchers and divers, not that rain was a causative factor. This is the monsoon season in at least parts of the area (reason for the storms) and there is flooding in some of nearby S E Asia. It's raining now, rain is predicted for the days following.
Better underwater visibility and lower wave height will improve the ability to sight wreckage from the air and conditions for divers involved in tecovery operations.
As a qualified master, rescue, search and recovery and wreck diver with 58 years of diving experience, including Indonesia, I'm quite qualified to offer informed opinion on this aspect. (I also was a pilot and global ATC troubleshooter and engineer, for those who might wish to know.)
Last edited by JDiver; Jan 3, 2015 at 12:56 pm
Jan 3, 2015, 9:03 am
#416
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Original Poster
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Posts: 62,948
Aljazeera is also reporting that 4 large objects has been located, As of now most of the media is focused on the permit to flight that specific flight route on that specific day (No permission / authorization was issued) this sounds very fishy, I am not an aviation expert but even with a small boat if you going far from your port you have to report your travel plans... How does a plane with +160 people can depart an airport without such authorizations???
Jan 3, 2015, 9:05 am
#417
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
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Per SIN's latest Strait Times, weather/sea conditions expected to improve on Sunday (it's late Saturday evening) with 1.5 to 2 m waves - SAR reported 4 "large" objects believed to the sections of the QZ8501 @30 meters below on the sea floor (one @ 18 meters/60 feet) Okay, locate & retrieve the boxes and those who perished to bring them "home" & do the investigative facts-finding - bless them all & grateful to those who worked tirelessly & continuously over the New Year - a 2nd. US ship on station & even Russia's maritime assets arrived on the multi-national humanitarian efforts.
Last edited by JDiver; Jan 3, 2015 at 12:30 pm
Jan 3, 2015, 10:24 am
#418
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: san antonio, texas
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Posts: 1,586
I don't put much stock in this aspect of the accident. I suspect missing authorizing paperwork for flying on a particular day is more common than this isolated event and usually only surfaces when a tragedy like this occurs. For example, an airline files for 3-5 day a week service, sees tremendous demand for the route, and either through oversight or a desire not to reopen review of the route, just adds another day to the service to meet demand. Using the US as a reference, does ATC/FAA have immediate access to route authorizations, since requests are filed with the Secretary of Transportation's office?
Jan 3, 2015, 11:50 am
#419
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 132
Like I said, Indonesian incompetence in regards to air transportation is not new or surprising. Still, I have to wonder about one thing. What do the Indonesian authorities mean by "no authorization" for this flight? If they mean by not allowing them to fly that route on that day, how did they manage to take off in the first place? Won't ATC have to give clearance to the flight plan filed by AirAsia? And isn't it the job of AirAsia's flight dispatcher to file the plan with the relevant regulatory authorities beforehand? Or was there even a flight plan filed in the first place?
Even supposing the Indonesian Civil Aviation Authorities are incompetent (which they often are), are they so stupid and incompetent to the point as to approve a flight plan when the airline isn't even suppose to fly that route on that day? Surely that is not rocket science, and definitely not that hard to realize. Or worse, did they let AirAsia take off with no flight plan filed? Hard to imagine, but with the state of air travel in Indonesia, yes, it wouldn't surprise me. The only question is how the Surabaya ATC can be this slip shot as to not even know this.
Even supposing the Indonesian Civil Aviation Authorities are incompetent (which they often are), are they so stupid and incompetent to the point as to approve a flight plan when the airline isn't even suppose to fly that route on that day? Surely that is not rocket science, and definitely not that hard to realize. Or worse, did they let AirAsia take off with no flight plan filed? Hard to imagine, but with the state of air travel in Indonesia, yes, it wouldn't surprise me. The only question is how the Surabaya ATC can be this slip shot as to not even know this.
Last edited by kenban; Jan 3, 2015 at 12:27 pm
Jan 3, 2015, 12:33 pm
#420
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: TUS, SEA, OTP, OMR
Posts: 868
As someone else noted, I'd be surprised in the US if Flight Service actually checks route authorizations before putting a flight plan into the system. They are probably (and should be), much more concerned with determining if the flight plan is safe and will result in adequate separate from everything else which has been filed.
It's too bad this route authorization thing has become such a sideshow. It seems extremely unlikely that the lack of route authorization a couple of days a week played any factor in this accident whatsoever (we're talking black hole levels of improbability here).