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Official LGW Routes Axed: ABZ, NCE, PRG, KEF, SPU

Official LGW Routes Axed: ABZ, NCE, PRG, KEF, SPU

Old Nov 30, 07, 10:54 am
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by Bukhara View Post
Legal rights are, regrettably, minimal. You have been given sufficient notice to render the EU Directive irrelevant and BA would offer you a refund of the cancelled flights.



This is not correct!

Under European Regulation No 261/2004
http://europa.eu/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/d...en00010007.pdf

When a flight is cancelled:


The passenger shall be offered the choice between
(a) — reimbursement within seven days, by the means
provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket
at the price at which it was bought, for the part or
parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts
already made if the flight is no longer serving any
purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel
plan, together with, when relevant,
— a return flight to the first point of departure, at the
earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their
final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their
final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience,
subject to availability of seats.
and

‘cancellation’ means the non-operation of a flight which
was previously planned and on which at least one place
was reserved.
The amount of notice of the cancellation given by the airline is irrelevant as far as the right to re-routing is concerned.


Under the EU Regulation the amount of notice affects only how much financial compensation is due to the passenger over and above the passenger's choice of rerouting or refund of the fare.

Compensation of between 125 and 600 Euros may be due but only if the passenger has been given less than 2 weeks notice of the cancellation

(c) have the right to compensation by the operating air carrier
in accordance with Article 7, unless:
(i) they are informed of the cancellation at least two
weeks before the scheduled time of departure; or
(ii) they are informed of the cancellation between two
weeks and seven days before the scheduled time of
departure and are offered re-routing, allowing them to
depart no more than two hours before the scheduled
time of departure and to reach their final destination
less than four hours after the scheduled time of arrival;
or
(iii) they are informed of the cancellation less than seven
days before the scheduled time of departure and are
offered re-routing, allowing them to depart no more
than one hour before the scheduled time of departure
and to reach their final destination less than two hours
after the scheduled time of arrival.
Article 7
Right to compensation
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall
receive compensation amounting to:
(a) EUR 250 for all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less;
(b) EUR 400 for all intra-Community flights of more than
1 500 kilometres, and for all other flights between 1 500
and 3 500 kilometres;
(c) EUR 600 for all flights not falling under (a) or (b).
In determining the..............................................
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Old Nov 30, 07, 11:05 am
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by Alvador View Post



This is not correct!

Under European Regulation No 261/2004
http://europa.eu/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/d...en00010007.pdf

When a flight is cancelled:

blah, blah
And if you think BA's gonna pay out or re-route, I'm sure that was a pig I just saw flying by my window.

They'll do anything and give any lame @rse excuse to get out of it.
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Old Nov 30, 07, 11:48 am
  #33  
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Last edited by Bukhara; Jul 26, 12 at 4:23 pm
 
Old Nov 30, 07, 11:53 am
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by Bukhara View Post
BA will not quibble about giving a refund for the cancelled flight.

Anyway, the EU Reg was built around last minute delays and cancellations. It is not relevant for a route withdrawal with 4 months notice.
However unfortunately (for BA), that's not what it actually says, and has been quoted above.

As I've been finding out recently, what the law intends and what it actually says are two very different things.
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Old Nov 30, 07, 11:57 am
  #35  
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Where does it say they have to re-route you on another operating carrier though? If BA no longer serves KEF from anywhere on its network, it can't re-route you via its own network...but AFAICS it doesn't require them to re-route on another operating carrier?
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Old Nov 30, 07, 12:11 pm
  #36  
 
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Here is a copy of Rule 240 in the states:
http://consumerist.com/consumer/rule...240-250368.php

In the USA, airlines have to buy a ticket even on an non-partner airline.

It seems like the regulations listed above are similar.

I know generally these are used for last minute issues, but there is no specified time limits...the cancellation could be 2 hours, 2 days, 2 months.

More importantly common Sense dictates that if if an airline tells you they are going to get you to a destination that they should be required to do so or give you your money back.

Many people buy tickets many months in advance to get good deals...an airline canceling within a month would almost always cause a price increase for a customer.

Furthermore, as in my case the BA segments are part of a 20 segment itn...refunding is not an option.
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Old Nov 30, 07, 12:35 pm
  #37  
 
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Originally Posted by Bukhara View Post
BA will not quibble about giving a refund for the cancelled flight.

Anyway, the EU Reg was built around last minute delays and cancellations. It is not relevant for a route withdrawal with 4 months notice.
The EU Regulation carefully defines what a cancellation is as follows:
"cancellation" means the non-operation of a flight which
was previously planned and on which at least one place
was reserved.

This clearly applies to flights cancelled months or weeks in advance as well as last-minute cancellations.


Originally Posted by G-BOAC View Post
Where does it say they have to re-route you on another operating carrier though? If BA no longer serves KEF from anywhere on its network, it can't re-route you via its own network...but AFAICS it doesn't require them to re-route on another operating carrier?
Surely the point is that the Regulation says that passengers have the right to their choice of
re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their
final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their
final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.

It does not restrict the passengers' right to re-routing to travel only on the carrier that cancelled the flight. Indeed in many cases transport "at the earliest opportunity" or "at the passenger's convenience" will require that the re-routing be on another carrier.
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Old Nov 30, 07, 12:36 pm
  #38  
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Originally Posted by LHR Tim View Post
And if you think BA's gonna pay out or re-route, I'm sure that was a pig I just saw flying by my window.

They'll do anything and give any lame @rse excuse to get out of it.
They will do so, till you take'em to court. Then they'll pay up the rerouting as per their legal obligations.
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Old Nov 30, 07, 12:48 pm
  #39  
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Last edited by Bukhara; Jul 26, 12 at 4:23 pm
 
Old Nov 30, 07, 12:55 pm
  #40  
 
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Originally Posted by Bukhara View Post
Ho hum. Go ahead and flog that dead horse.

I just think it's more sensible to give those affected realistic advice rather than tenuous suggestions that are based upon interpretation.
The EU Regulation, the full original text of which is linked to in my post above, is actually quite clearly written and doesn't seem ambiguous to me.

I'm puzzled as to exactly which aspect of my interpretation you disagree with and why.
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Old Nov 30, 07, 1:28 pm
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Alvador View Post
The EU Regulation, the full original text of which is linked to in my post above, is actually quite clearly written and doesn't seem ambiguous to me.

I'm puzzled as to exactly which aspect of my interpretation you disagree with and why.
It isn't a case of Bukhara particularly saying that he disagrees with it himself, just that this is how BA have chosen to deal with it.

The EU Compensation regulations have a lot of things like this in them where it is reasonably clear cut where the consumer has rights, but the airline has sufficient wriggle room to get out of it.

If you wish to take BA to court as graraps suggests, you would be doing a lot of people a favour.

This isn't the place to be debating the letter of the regulations themselves, it is the place to be listening to people who know what they are talking about and you making a choice accordingly.

I know this is annoying and you feel you are entitled to something morally and legally, but unfortunatley you just are not going to get it.
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Old Nov 30, 07, 1:34 pm
  #42  
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Last edited by Bukhara; Jul 26, 12 at 4:18 pm
 
Old Nov 30, 07, 3:01 pm
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by Bukhara View Post
The affected services (hitherto known as the 'Gatwick 5') are clearly cancelled flights. I don't think anybody has a problem with that.

Article 5 of EU Reg says that BA should offer assistance as per Article 8 (namely reimbursement, rerouting etc).

Article 5 goes further to state that BA should offer assistance as per Article 9 (accommodation, transport etc).

Article 5 then goes into compensation territory whereby BA should offer assistance as per Article 7.

This all applies UNLESS :
(i) they are informed of the cancellation at least two
weeks before the scheduled time of departure
Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. The EU Regulations are there for anyone to read and are entirely clear and unambiguous on this point. The limitation on passengers' rights when they are informed of the cancellation at least two weeks before the scheduled time of departure applies only to Article 7 Right to compensation and not to Article 8 Right to reimbursement or re-routing nor to Article 9 Right to care.


Originally Posted by spanishflea View Post
.
If you wish to take BA to court as graraps suggests, you would be doing a lot of people a favour.

This isn't the place to be debating the letter of the regulations themselves, it is the place to be listening to people who know what they are talking about and you making a choice accordingly.
I don't have a reservation on one of the cancelled flights and therefore have no reason to ask anything of BA let alone take them to court. However, like most people who fly reasonably frequently I am from time to time affected by cancellations and delays. I think it is, therefore, useful to be aware of the "letter of the regulations" which apply in these circumstances.

When Bukhara, a BA employee, misquotes the regulations and argues that it is a waste of time for passengers whose flights have been cancelled to request re-routing from BA, I think it is appropriate to refute what he says by referring to the details of the regulations. I'm not suggesting for a moment that Bukhara is deliberately attempting to mislead us. Rather, I suspect he has been affected by a "culture of denial" of the implications of EU Regulation No 261/2004 at BA and other airlines.
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Old Nov 30, 07, 3:12 pm
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Bukhara View Post
The affected services (hitherto known as the 'Gatwick 5') are clearly cancelled flights. I don't think anybody has a problem with that.

Article 5 of EU Reg says that BA should offer assistance as per Article 8 (namely reimbursement, rerouting etc).

Article 5 goes further to state that BA should offer assistance as per Article 9 (accommodation, transport etc).

Article 5 then goes into compensation territory whereby BA should offer assistance as per Article 7.

This all applies UNLESS :
(i) they are informed of the cancellation at least two
weeks before the scheduled time of departure


The Krakow Titan substitution and the poor FTer who received a shockingly bad response from BA after an Algiers debacle are the sorts of cases where people should be waving this EU Regulation in BA's face - not for route withdrawals with over 4 months notice.

Let's find some common ground here- it's easier than some may suspect. I hope you agree with the following:

1) The EU regulations make provisions for cancelled etc flights. These, as Bukhara clarifies above, are mostly intended to offer protection for last-minute cock-ups. Since there is no BA service to the destination, rerouting provisions may or may not cover you.

2) BA will not be interested in proactively doing anything for you, apart from giving you a refund and telling you to go forth and multiply. They won't do it automatically, and they won't do it if you call once and ask nicely.

3) However, the above statements do not mean that BA is free to do anything it wishes and not pay any compensation as long as it gives 2 weeks' notice. Much as is the case with mistake fares, BA have accepted consideration for transportation and they are subject to the law of contract.
If their CoC say they can cancel at will, it's an UCTA (Unfair Contract Terms Act) violation and the term just doesn't apply.
If, as it appears here, they also happen have a clear policy of walking out of contracts when they feel like it (as long as they give 2 wks notice) while not allowing their pax to do so, then there's a systematic approach to violating the UCTA provisions.

4) My understanding of the law is that you shouldn't have any problems proving point 3) in court. And I do have a feeling that BA may actually feel compelled to act and save on legal costs by paying the price of your Icelandair ticket if you send them a nice letter pointing out the above.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. I'd contact your Citizens Advice Bureau (or go to the legalbanter forum) to double-check above points.
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Old Nov 30, 07, 3:25 pm
  #45  
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Last edited by Bukhara; Jul 26, 12 at 4:19 pm
 

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