OT: LH considering flat beds in economy
 

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...r-economy.html

Seems a bit far-fetched to me, but on the other hand it would be a massive differentiator on long-haul.

Having seen that picture I'm wondering whether the holds below are named "Tom, Dick and Harry"

:) :) :)

Can I be the first.

"What's the best bunk on a Lufty A380 ?"

Sorry..!

There's been a fair amount of discussion of this already on the LH board:

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=713372

The original survey LH sent to some of its FF's was also sent to an FTer, who was kind enough to leak the information to us long before the media caught wind of it. :D

Personally, I love the idea. I don't have the money to fly Business on my own dime, but for 200€ extra per segment I would book this option in an instant!

I'd be sceptical if this ever came to fruition on traditional carriers. Isn't it in a full service carriers interest to ensure that Y is not too comfortable in order to protect and sell it's premium products? If the proposed bunk was similar to a crew bunk, in both size and comfort, it's going to be much better as a sleeping surface than F on the majority of carriers (with the exception of SQ 77W).

It's a great idea, but that it would be positioned more in the Premium Economy Sector, especially if FIRST gets pulled on several routes by many carriers.

The major issues will be natural light from windows (not such an issue on night flight....!), and the ease with which pax can escape in an emergency.

Looks like bunks I endured during my time in the Navy, though....

I suppose it is just a natural progression....I seem to remember Hawaaian or was it Phillippines had a similar bed concept installed in the 1980s......?

I think it looks pretty dreadful in that picture (army barracks), but what an idea!! Not sure about some of the practicalities either, brilliant for relatively fit people, but not for the elderly or anyone with a disability etc. Imagine telling a little old lady that she has the top bunk!! Even getting into the bottom one would be a nighmare for the elderly!

Perhaps but privacy and service are also factors. I see this LH idea as being akin to sharing a dorm at a YHA. It could well be comfortable but with a Crowne Plaza a few steps away and a Four Seasons just a little further beyond that, I'd set my sights a little higher.

I'm imagining the combination of this type of cabin with BA seat shifting policy ... and the threads that would ensue on FT.

Why do BA have a policy if "seat shifting"?

You'll have to ask Willie Walsh that question, I s'pose.

But basically, the problem is that even if you qualify for advance seat assignments, they are no guarantee whatsoever that the seat you asked for will be the seat you get.

I know a seat assignment is not a guarantee on any carrier, but with BA seat re-assignment has become extremely common lately.

The main challenge I see with this is that PAX will have to lie down the whole time pretty much and wont be able to sit up at all. Great if you want to sleep but not that many people would sleep the entire flight...

Good point.

Wouldn't this run into cultural sensitivities? Europeans may be quite happy lying next to someone they don't know but many East Asian and Arabic people would be less than pleased to end up in this arrangement.

If your not planning on sleeping for the majority of the flight then why would you both paying a premium for a bed :confused:

I think this is only really going to be feasible on the A380 for sure, perhaps on the 748 too, but from my limited understanding that is going to have considerably less capacity?! - I'm sure someone will be able to correct me on that.

Either way, I think its an innovative idea. One of the major benefits in a premium class is the ability to sleep and arrive at your destination feeling (reletively) refreshed and the majority of longhaul routes (S. Africa, Far East, South America) are overnight. It seems most of the N. America flights, particually Eastbound are overnight too so why not focus on a cheap way for the majority of passengers to sleep - Bet it would make the crews life easier.

For me, as a youngster, the incentive to travel in club would be less - particually with the right coloured plastic getting me into the lounges before and after (where applicable) the flight.

Ironic that LH considers flat beds in Y, but won't consider seat-back IFE!! I'm sure I read on FT somewhere that LH is the ONLY major airline that when ordering new aircraft, does not opt for seat-back IFE in Y :eek:

Exactly. No sitting up even for take-off or landing, which would be very odd (and quite possibly contrary to safety regulations?)

Looks a bit like a couchette arrangement on a Continental European night train.

(These are standard old-fashioned train compartments with the side corridor and sliding doors, and with six seats, three opposite three. When it's time to sleep, the train conductor pulls a few levers, and each set of seats converts into three beds, one above the other. So you have a compartment with six people sleeping in close proximity, although you are not actually sleeping next to anyone because you have the compartment wall one side of you and the "aisle" the other. You are not expected to change out of your day clothes although you are given a blanket. A bit like CW in that respect.)

There is certainly a market for those, given the right journey timings, and in fact on a train journey that starts after dinner time the compartments will normally be in "bed" configuration when you board.

All recent additions to the Lufthansa fleet have spaces in the seats where PTVs will be fitted at a later date. They've also already added the equipment boxes under the seats (which are empty for now). This picture will show you what I mean.

There are persistent rumors that the PTVs are to be installed starting later this year, starting with the A330 and A340-600 fleets, which have the spaces and boxes described above. Rumor also has it that LH can completely re-fit one of the new aircraft in less than a day, though I have a bit of trouble believing that.

This already happens in Club, particularly in the E/F seats. Economy, whilst not lying down, is even more intimate than these proposed bunks. Finally, bunked a/c are only proposed for a select few routes, according to LH researchers apparently, and even then will be offered as well as, not instead of, traditional LH economy seating

You're absolutely right on those points. They will likely be introduced on the A380 or B747-800 (LH has ordered both) and will be offered as an upsell on your standard economy ticket. The aircraft will still have run-of-the-mill Y seats for anyone who is not comfortable with this layout.

In any case, this product is proposed for double-overnight flights (night flights both ways). The reseachers specifically mentioned FRA-SIN-FRA and FRA-JNB-FRA. Other routes on the LH network that fit the bill would be FRA-BKK-FRA and FRA-GRU-FRA.

Actually, in Japanese sleeper trains and on Chinese coastal ferries, you may well end up bunking next to someone you don't know.

The third-class "staterooms" (by far the majority of space, next to "fourth class," which was a grass mat on the deck) on the coastal ferry I took in China in 1990 had six two-level bunks per room. Our group of American visitors was in "second class," with two two-level bunks per room. We peeked into the one "first class" room, which we were told was only for high officials, and it looked like a Victorian parlor.

I was unsure whether to laugh or cry when I saw the 'picture'...I doubt WW will be too worried about this...!

Someone made a comment like this on the thread about this on the LH board, and I'm going to post more or less what I posted in response to it there:

Please keep in mind that is product is an upsell to the regular Economy ticket.

Keeping that in mind, it's miles ahead of any other Economy (or even premium Economy) product I know. It's obviously not for everyone, but that's why they're making it optional rather than mandatory.

I can imagine these beds being in great demand for eastbound night flight homes form the US to Germany, but I'm not sure how popular they'd be on day-time flights???

I agree, and was thinking about flat beds in y a few weeks ago. I suppose that business will have a 'cabin' with a proper bed and mini-bar and F will have en-suite facilities with a jacuzzi!

As are "The Bearded One's" regular PR offerings...pity they never translate into actual on-board facilities! :rolleyes:

Looks like army barracks or a school dorm. Not sure how much sleep you'd get with all those people snoring :eek:

No. Instead of idle speculation in a thread on the BA forum, take a read of the thread on the LH forum for an explanation of how it works.

Article and picture in the Daily Mail
 

Hi,

From the Daily mail;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1811

Regards

TBS

I can't see this actually getting anywhere for the simple reason that the planes will have space that potentially isn't being used on some flights, which I can't see the bean counters being very happy about, 200 euro or not (happy to be proved wrong here).

If the space was convertible back into seats then I can see the sense, but not if there will be Y seats empty because pax have decided to pay the extra for a bunk. What happens if you can't get to sleep, despite trying counting Sheep etc. do you have a seat you can go back to if you want or not?

If loads of people pony up the 200 euro, and there are lots of economy rows empty at the back of the plane, those pax who didn't want to fork out, can just lie across those empty seats.

If you read the LH thread you will see that the bunks effectively form a seperate class within the aircraft. You will thus choose either a sleeper or Y seat, much as you would choose a J seat or a Y seat. You would not expect to get both.

For take off and landing the bunks convert into a sort of seat arrangement with backrest on the lower bunk. 4 People will be strapped into this during take off and landing. I personally think the concept is rather sound, get pissed n the lounge, maybe watch a film with a drink (you have helped yourself to) and then sleep until shortly before landing. That sounds pretty much like my normal longhaul travel routine in J or F ;)

This could quite seriously change the way that very long haul travel works.

The idea that a flat bed would no longer be the preserve of F/J will be a major change. It will mean that for many the argument for F/J travel (ie a good sleep and a flat bed) will be blown out of the window.

I suspect that this is yet another nail in the coffin for F class travel.

I don't think that's true. Remember we've only had flat beds (in jets) for a little more than a decade, and F has been around for a lot longer. And as LH themselves have discovered, enhancing the product on the ground as well as in the air attracts you plenty of F customers.

Although I agree with the point about LH F I think that corporate travel budjets will come under increasing pressure with these kind of developments. It makes it harder to justify a 4k price tag for a J Class return to the US versus £500-800.

FD

There is the rub though isn't it? Some carriers are happy to invest in the total experience like LH, SQ, CX and even VS up to a point. Other carriers are happy to make an investemnt in the onboard product, but see improving the service offering as stacking up increased labour costs (i.e. threatening current "optimised" crewing levels).

I think there is a real place for an F experience which provides end to end convenience and service, I see little room in the market for just a nice seat.

I think the bunk bed idea is actually rather clever from that perspective. It is almost impossible for any PAX to work on board when all they have is a bed. For those of us who do occasionally need to work, I don't think this is such a big issue. It is way better value for my clients to spend a little extra so that I can actually work rather than paying for my time spent sleeping/eating and watching films.

Actually it looks a fair bit like a Chinese sleeper bus...and even more like hard sleep class on their trains.

How would somebody eat if assigned to a sleeper? If going West Coast USA, Asia or Australia on LH, you would certainly want to eat at least once..........

LH don't fly to OZ. It seems like you pick up a snack and take it back to your bunk if you want to eat or drink. It isnt clear if they have some sort of "bar" area.

The concept is spreading:http://www.stuff.co.nz/4157740a13.html