I still can't get over the WT use of miles, but anyway, for the 50,000 you've quoted, I could do 2 NCW MFU returns to the US & the cost of the WT+ tickets.

Now I don't mind paying for the tickets and then upgr*ding because I find this a better use of my miles/money. I'm going to be paying the surcharge whether I fly using just miles, MFU or cash only, and I have to travel to get to my holiday destination, usually by BA plane. If I outlay some cash & pay for WT+, I get miles for the ticket, and that helps offset the 25,000 cost of the upgr*de, usually I justify this in my mind as the helping with the cost of the ticket/surcharge. Also all the little extras (see post 14) that you get closer to the pointy end, are boosted by the fact that you are the second lot to deplane and that really helps with US immigration queues (although not such a bonus if you are a US passport holder).

I prefer NCW to WT & WT+ for the reasons listed above, so why not go in style, stump up the cash for WT+, and blow some miles?

I think many of you are missing the point here. Yes, BA Club is better than AA business class. Yes, using miles for Coach tickets isn't a good use of them. But BA's decision to have a very large fuel surcharge not built into the price of the ticket is costing you all money that you would not have to pay if BA had simply increased the ticket price. To take my (non-miles) example, on BA the total taxes/fees were $244 on a $378 ticket. On AA they were $114 on a $513 ticket. Approximately the same total price....

Yes I understand your point that the surcharge is applied to Miles Only Bookings, which is correct however I don't fly that way. What I'm saying is I'm going to be buying a ticket to upgr*de using my miles, so even if I went AA Y and upgr*ded it's roughly the same £ cost as BA, as you say. I'd be paying the same whichever airline I used, and be getting, as you say, a better deal on BA. The added benefit of this is that I get (say for a return trip to BOS) 8168 miles (3267+817 cabin bonus each way) for the WT+ ticket, If I had bought the thing using a BA Amex I'd get more.

So whether the money is tacked on as a surcharge or included in the price of the ticket, makes no difference to me! :p
Plus paying cash for my ticket WT+ has effectively reduced the the total cost in miles.

This certainly isn't just a BA thing! I have seen similar threads in the AF/KLM and LH/LX sections! The european big three charge an exorbidant amount of taxes on their award tickets. I have paid AF as much as $350 for a simple coach redemption; I redeemed DL miles for the identical routing on AF (another person) and DL only wanted about $170. I redeemed CO miles for a business ticket on AF to the same destination and CO only wanted $90. Redeeming Qualiflyer (yrs ago) miles on AA for a UA/Canada ticket I paid about $90 in taxes....AA has never charged more than $30ish for the same routing redeeming AA miles. They used to only charge $5!

And KLM still has the nerve to advertise "free tickets"/"free travel", when it's been anything but that with KL for quite some time. :(

In fact, if you use your miles prudently on MFU fares, given the typically higher prices for BA Club and FIRST vs. US carriers, and the higher standards all round with BA you will find you miles are extremely good value.

25k BA Miles can be used to upgrade all (except sale price) WT+ Premium Economy fares to Club World fully flat beds. These can cost as little as $600-$900 round trip depending on route and season. You get 125% of miles flown, and the fares are valid to most of Europe (connecting, with lounge access on Club Europe). What's more as you get 15k BA Miles free with the BA Visa card (see www.ba.com) and would earn approx 13k BA miles flying WT+ MFUd to NCW for instance NYC-LHR-NCE round trip without status bonuses the mileage element is effectively free.

Very good value indeed.

This compares with AA who charge 50k miles to upgrade to an extremely outdated seat product, no upper deck 747 on offer, usually a connecting flight involved, no free bar or substantial food/massage on the ground pre-flight, poor quality arrivals facilities and only 100% of miles flown. On top of this, and the cost of your origial ticket, they charge a $500 co-pay!!!

I don't think we are missing the point - I think we've lived with it for so long now, we're past the point of complaining about it. Yes, we know it is ridiculous, but complaining for the last x years hasn't made any difference, so why will they change it now?

I also think that part of the problem is you are doing WT redemptions - if I redeem in J, and have to pay £120 in charges, then I think "well it's not too bad, the ticket would have cost £4500, so I'm getting a J ticket for £120". Whereas because you are redeeming in Y, you are probably paying £100 (taxes are marginally less for a Y ticket!) on a ticket which may only have cost £600 to buy. No wonder you are complaining! Hence Jimmie76's view (and indeed the general board view) on why a MFU is better value for the miles - your outlay will be slightly greater, but the return you get from the miles is often vastly greater - you may be paying £800 at the outset, but you're spending that and miles to get a ticket worth £2k-£4k (depending on the routing). And on a MFU you should (although you may have to fight) earn more miles back to spend as well...

Oh bearded one
 

yet another example to pass on the UK/US authorities, keep up the good work :D

I often redeem miles in Y when my wife and I go visit the family in the west country frlying EDI to BRS. Mind you it is all relative as I have hundreds of thousands of the damn things so the odd 24000 miles here and there is fine.

I'm slightly confused by some of the "confusion" or "surprise" towards the use of the miles for economy redemptions. Sure, they obviously are not the best use of miles, but they still represent (comparatively) free travel and bring you to your destination.

Certainly on the routes I most commonly fly with BA (JNB, CPT, SEA), redemption availability is pretty stingy so sometimes economy is the only choice when I plan to use miles. Premium cabins redemption oppurtunities are often booked up long before the economy availability even seems to have been touched. And trying to organise MFU-trips seems such a hassle at times, especially on my routes; I'm not the sort of person that can plan my flying 351 days in advance. (I mean, I'm planning use of miles to SEA, and already MFU oppurtunities are extremely limited and basically worthless.)

So the option sometimes is redeem in economy or allow the miles to languish. I'd rather fly than not at all.

And I've always been totally satisfied. With status I get to use the premium ground facilities and treatment, and once in the air I fall alseep. It is great when I want to make an unplanned trip and/or one that falls outside my travel budget for the year, because economy availablility always seems to be open, or at best more open than the premium cabins. I once booked CPT-LHR two weeks out in economy with my brother in economy (and we even got upgraded to Club).

And it makes sense. BA makes their money in the premium cabins, so I imagine they are more inclined to actually have somewhat decent award availability in the back, versus the front (i.e. JNB basically only open on the third Tuesday on every second month in Club when the planets are properly aligned, if that).

And yeah, the surcharge rubbish...

It is totally stupid.

Most of these mandatory charges seem to be basic operating expenses and should form part of the actual fare. At worst, those charges that are not actual taxes and airport fees should be dropped in the case of redemption bookings. At best, the only fees on top of the actual fare should be money BA must pass on to the airport and/or tax man.

It's just legalised highway robbery IMHO.

But then, I don't often complain too often about paying $250 for a roundtrip 11 hour flight...

Do you have an example? Are you talking about using another carrier in a nearby city or the same one?

Not at this time, but I have seen this very often between
JFK-LHR.
Round trip tickets could be under $200, but taxes well above $200

I've posted some examples -- but not all -- where it's affected me personally. Some were using another carrier for the same city pairs; some were different carriers using even the same airports. And at least one example had tickets using BA miles having taxes/fees slightly less than buying a ticket for the same exact routing/flights. :eek: The cash + miles option for coach travel was a bad deal for short-haul intra-Europe travels. (And short-haul intra-Europe biz-travel is not what I'm talking about.)

LHR-CPH and LHR-ARN are two examples where I've had several instances where taxes and fees on a BA mileage ticket were more expensive or just a couple of dollars less than LHR-CPH and LHR-ARN on a paid ticket.

Are you sure about the JFK? The most recent offer, mirroring most past offers, around the circa $200 mark are based on one-way fares for a return ticket, only bookable on certain days. Usually so many restrictions and strings attached as to make them near impossible to use (midweek travel, certain times of day etc.). The total fare usually comes out around $400 plus. At least, that has been my experience...