BA Planned 787-10 Routes for 2023

Old Jan 28, 2023, 8:12 am
  #46  
 
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Just passed by the Boeing plant in CHS and there’s soon another 787 to come for BA it seems - looks like almost ready. As a side note.

Quite impressive lineup of 787’s and best looking one is in complete Star Alliance livery.
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Old Jan 28, 2023, 9:33 am
  #47  
 
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Originally Posted by opus99
Precisely. These new frames have high monthly payments so you really want to flog them to extract as much cash as you can because it’s on the longer routes that you’ll really the benefit of the fuel differential
Gonna disagree with the framing slightly then: it's not the high capex payments that keep new frames off JFK but rather the fact that they're the most efficient frames around, and it's not the amortisation that enables them to operate on JFK, but the fact that there are yet newer, more efficient frames to do the longer runs. Correlation but not causation basically.
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Old Jan 28, 2023, 1:21 pm
  #48  
 
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Originally Posted by Duck1981
Just passed by the Boeing plant in CHS and there’s soon another 787 to come for BA it seems - looks like almost ready. As a side note.

Quite impressive lineup of 787’s and best looking one is in complete Star Alliance livery.
that will be G-ZBLE. It’s finished it’s rework and will be delivered next month or March.
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Old Jan 28, 2023, 1:23 pm
  #49  
 
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Originally Posted by etiene
Gonna disagree with the framing slightly then: it's not the high capex payments that keep new frames off JFK but rather the fact that they're the most efficient frames around, and it's not the amortisation that enables them to operate on JFK, but the fact that there are yet newer, more efficient frames to do the longer runs. Correlation but not causation basically.
yes this is it. I say it later down thread after someone pointed it out. Thanks!
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Old Jan 28, 2023, 1:24 pm
  #50  
 
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Originally Posted by Irishtraveler
787-10 will be flying to BOS in the winter BA213/BA212 is A380 in summer and 787-10 in winter.
787-10 does boston in the summer too

everyday except Mondays and Thursdays. So 5 days a week
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Old Jan 30, 2023, 3:36 am
  #51  
 
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I found this YouTube film interesting:
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Old Feb 1, 2023, 1:15 am
  #52  
 
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Slightly OT, but important for those considering a booking. BA keep changing Denver BA218/9 from a 781 to 789 a couple of times a week, and often on the morning of the flight. How do they reassign Club seats? If you had a middle two on 781, do you end up in that awful seat on the 789? Do they compensate you if you paid for seats? Do they compensate you for having to use the 2006 Club product when you assumed you were on the Club Suite?
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Old Feb 1, 2023, 1:32 am
  #53  
 
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Originally Posted by Young82
Slightly OT, but important for those considering a booking. BA keep changing Denver BA218/9 from a 781 to 789 a couple of times a week, and often on the morning of the flight. How do they reassign Club seats? If you had a middle two on 781, do you end up in that awful seat on the 789?
No clue on the logic, the process is automated and led by the big Amadeus sentient brain. It will try to keep families together and so on.

Originally Posted by Young82
Do they compensate you if you paid for seats?
You can apply for a refund of the seat.

Originally Posted by Young82
Do they compensate you for having to use the 2006 Club product when you assumed you were on the Club Suite?
No.
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Old Feb 1, 2023, 1:50 am
  #54  
 
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Originally Posted by 13901
No clue on the logic, the process is automated and led by the big Amadeus sentient brain. It will try to keep families together and so on.



You can apply for a refund of the seat.



No.
Still baffles me the things aviation can get away with Vs other industries.

If you order a 2023 Porsche Carrera 4S and get a 2006 version, and they just say “well the service and fresh air are still the same” Porsche would be in the Courts in most countries.

Same with TV, Mobile Phone companies… any company… but aviation gets away with mis-selling.
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Old Feb 1, 2023, 3:07 am
  #55  
 
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Originally Posted by PGberkshire
In a few years BA will have converted all B787's to club suites, so that wont happen.
This is BA, I’ll believe it when I see it! Those A380s will have that old product for the next 5-6 years? Gatwick 777s for another 5-7 years?[/QUOTE]

The 787 refresh has already started[/QUOTE]

I am still of the view that the A380 future is not that certain. Overall the trend is to get rid of them (even EK is downsizing). They are a pain as many airports cannot take them (look at the BA193 yesterday, a 777-300 could have theoretically landed as the issue was the A380 cannot land on the 2 Easterly runways) and then there is the 299Y seats, which are almost never full on most routes. Yes I have little doubt that if Club Suite goes into the entire top deck with a slightly bigger WT+ cabin that will cut the number of Y seats but DFW last week Y had only about 150 in it and I can recall HKG being regularly half empty in Y pre pandemic. Also by 2024-2025 the 777-8/9 comes in and that is only marginally smaller and could easily be configured for 80-100 Club Suites if needed but with far less Y which is the issue.....
I just would not be surprised if they don't get phased out..... I think they are the best to fly on but commerically they must be a pain!
FD.
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Old Feb 1, 2023, 4:58 am
  #56  
 
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Originally Posted by Young82
Still baffles me the things aviation can get away with Vs other industries.

If you order a 2023 Porsche Carrera 4S and get a 2006 version, and they just say “well the service and fresh air are still the same” Porsche would be in the Courts in most countries.

Same with TV, Mobile Phone companies… any company… but aviation gets away with mis-selling.
The clue is in the contract you enter with the airline. It's one for the lawyers, of which I'm thankfully not one, but I believe that when you buy a J class seat it doesn't specify what sort of seat you get. It's understandably frustrating but alas that's where we are...

Last edited by 13901; Feb 1, 2023 at 6:37 am
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Old Feb 1, 2023, 4:27 pm
  #57  
 
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Originally Posted by 13901
The clue is in the contract you enter with the airline. It's one for the lawyers, of which I'm thankfully not one, but I believe that when you buy a J class seat it doesn't specify what sort of seat you get. It's understandably frustrating but alas that's where we are...
I suppose you select “Club World” and not the Suite, so if you end up on the 17 year old outdated product, serves us right for booking with BA!

From a PR, and Customer Experience perspective I just don’t understand why you’d offer such a poor hard product in 2023, with years of a roll out left to go.

Hard not to feel embarrassed for the company really.
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Old Feb 1, 2023, 5:00 pm
  #58  
 
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Originally Posted by Young82
Over the last month they are sadly changing the Denver BA218/9 plane sometimes just hours before from a 781 to 789.

That’s one way to make some Club passengers hate you forever. I think if it was a day flights I’d prefer to be downgraded and take some Avios for compensation.

How BA expects HNW clients to fly that 2006 version of Club in 2023 is beyond me. In a few years we’ll have graduates at work flying that version that weren’t even born when it was launched.
Just happened for tomorrow’s DEN-LHR flight that I’m on.

And I was assigned one of the middle seats and can’t get MMB to allow me to change it. Not very excited, I guess I have to hope it opens up at check-in and/or somehow it gets full enough for FLUB.
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Old Feb 2, 2023, 12:18 am
  #59  
 
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Originally Posted by becks1
Just happened for tomorrow’s DEN-LHR flight that I’m on.

And I was assigned one of the middle seats and can’t get MMB to allow me to change it. Not very excited, I guess I have to hope it opens up at check-in and/or somehow it gets full enough for FLUB.
Yeah this has happened to a few people at work who went skiing a few weeks back. They weren’t happy to say the least. One way to really p**s off some people who travel a lot. I’d estimate BA218/9 is now a 789 ~30% of the time, and very last min changes. So a warning to anyone thinking of booking Club on this route.
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Old Feb 2, 2023, 2:32 am
  #60  
 
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Originally Posted by Young82
I suppose you select “Club World” and not the Suite, so if you end up on the 17 year old outdated product, serves us right for booking with BA!

From a PR, and Customer Experience perspective I just don’t understand why you’d offer such a poor hard product in 2023, with years of a roll out left to go.

Hard not to feel embarrassed for the company really.
I see your point; as a former employee, if I can, I'd like however to add some more nuance to it all.

The changing of a cabin, like Club, isn't something that is done quickly - at least not in BA. The financing is huge - publicly available estimates from Air France when they phased out the A380s talked about half a billion for a fleet of a dozen or so planes, and BA isn't far off, I saw the figures for the 77Ws - and requires a lot of scrutiny from investors. Then there's the risk to revenue: you're taking out a hugely successful product for a new, and thus un-tested product, which you're unlikely to be able to chop and change for a good 5/10 years. You need to factor in a lot of input to create the best seat map: for instance, I know from talking to people working on it, the A380 LOPA that was approved before Covid has been reviewed as things have changed in the world in the past 2-3 years. Do it wrong, and you end up in a situation like CX who were rumoured to have wasted billions on two not-so-successful products.

BA is clearly slow in deciding, that is true, and I think there have been a good 4-5 years wasted as Keith Williams dithered on (rather ugly) ying-yang concepts. Had a new seat been chosen back in 2016 we'd have had the fleet retrofitted before Covid. But I wonder if the seat selected would have been as good as the one that BA ended up with, the B/E (Collins) Super Diamond. That didn't exist back then; there were some rather 'barebone' 1-2-1/all aisle access seats like the Cirrus (which was a pain to maintain), the Solstys (IB's seat, which I personally am ambivalent about), or the Thompson Aero product that was on the BMI G-MEDx midhauls (or Austrian these days), the one that a friend called "the CAT scan". None of those products are holding up to the test of time very well, and indeed I think most Cirrus/Solstys users are already replacing them. Would BA ditch a seat only after 5 years? I don't think so.

Then there's the problem of the retrofit campaign. That has undoubtedly been impacted by a combo of 2 factors: Covid and EEE components shortages. Covid not only closed off a chunk of the world for a while, and prevented some work from taking place during lockdowns, but it's also accelerating some trends and is forcing BA to revise some plans (the 380 LOPA I was mentionign earlier). It also made it a hell of a lot harder for IAG to fork out half a billion per fleet, if not more for the 787s, while they're losing billions as the world was shut down and their debt ratio is zooming up. The retrofit itself could've gone faster, were it not for the EEE shortage and the (ill-advised, as it turned out), decision to anticipate the phase-out of the 747s that has, as of now, left BA short of 29 longhaulers vs the 2019 plans. With hindsight, it'd have been good if they started 'big-bang' with the 787-9s as they were being delivered, factory-fresh. That was most certainly a missed opportunity. It'd have made such a difference.

All this to say I agree with you, from the outside looking in it's not a nice sight - although I will admit that I've never slept as well as I do on Old Club World, it feels "familiar" and comfortable as my own bivvy bag - but I do think that we ended up with the best product possible. Shame about having missed the 787-9s opportunity, or at least the tranche that was being delivered while the new seat was in development.
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