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The 2023 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261 / UK261

Old Jan 1, 2023, 11:31 am
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The 2023 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261 / UK261

Old Jul 27, 2023, 2:59 pm
  #1471  
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Ground crew issues are normally in scope for EC261. For the first case BA would use the 35 minute conformance and 1 hr MCT (at your time of booking) to say that if the fog put you into that area then the failed connection would be due to that. You would need CEDR to review that, depending on precise timings they may or may not find in your favour.

For the second case, if your original flight was cancelled, then it's potentially a 2 hour rule rather than 3 hours, so you would be OK anyway. The blocked gate issue at LAX may be regarded as outside BA's control if at LAX and the aircraft was not BA.
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Old Jul 27, 2023, 3:34 pm
  #1472  
 
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Thanks CWS...do you ever sleep?

Flight 1) BA rejected my first claim so I will check my timings and either follow the CEDR steps or cut them some slack.

Flight 2) The flight wasn't cancelled and I'm not sure if the blocking aircraft was the same airline.

"Your flight was initially delayed departing London Heathrow airport due to a technical issue that required an aircraft change prior to departure, this was a total delay of 3 Hours 5 minutes.

On arrival into Los Angeles, the aircraft arrived at the gate 16 minutes after landing. This was due to an aircraft operated by another airline was yet to depart the gate. This meant that our aircraft then had to wait on the tarmac until a time that enabled the aircraft to move safely."

IMO the 16 minutes from landing to gate sounds pretty normal for LAX and shouldn't override the fact they had all day to fix tech (aircraft landed night before or morning of before 1730 flight) or change plane at a home airport.
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Old Jul 27, 2023, 4:22 pm
  #1473  
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I suspect the second case isn't going to work for you. I mentioned the other airline factor before knowing that was in fact what BA claimed as well. The first case will also depend on details, and CEDR will be your best bet there.
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Old Jul 28, 2023, 8:23 am
  #1474  
 
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Hello everyone,

could you give me a quick check on a compensation claim regarding a delayed flight from Antigua ANU to London Gatwick LGW on 08th June 2023 (BA 2156) ?

Crew sickness caused a delayed departure of approx. 12 hours. According to customer relations the designated pilot got sick on the way to Antigua, so they had to fly in a replacement. Over intercom the pilot on our return flight said that he piloted the flight towards Antigua and before becoming the replacement himself he had to take a break because of legal working hours limits.
Anyway to my understanding the claim should be covered by UK261 Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, right ? It seems to be quite analogous to this here (29/05/2015) at Staines County Court in the case of Davies V British Airways PLC.

My spouse and I have already claimed compensation via the British Airways website and indeed have been compensated for the extra night staying on the island. But they deny compensation according to EU regulations stating the delay was beyond their control and that is why they are not obliged to compensate. (Don't know why they brought up EU law at that point with UK airline arriving in UK.) I understand that UK261 compensation is granted together with claims for expenses such as accomodation and not alternatively.
After one more mail their following resonse made it clear that they will not change their decision about the denial of compensation and that they would not respond any further regarding this topic.

Question 1: Is it now time for CEDR ? As far as I understood their guidelines and this thread you either have to wait 8 weeks (in case of no response at all) or you present a deadlock letter / final response. So far all communication from customer relations agents were written in German. Obviously they lack the words "deadlock" or "final response". I asked CEDR about that and they replied that the German "letters" may be used as evidence.
I just would not like to waste 25 Pounds starting a complaint without any possibility of success.

Question 2: Or is it better going via a claims handler ? No win, no fee & no hassle would be a big plus. Even though fees being around 30% or even 50%, when going to court.

Thank you very much for advice.
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Old Jul 28, 2023, 10:13 am
  #1475  
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Welcome to Flyertalk and welcome to the BA forum.

I would always advocate going to CEDR at the first opportunity since they have delays of their own - the sooner in, the sooner you progress. You have a deadlock letter, if you look upthread there are similar cases where the magic words are "our answer will not change".

I see no point in using a claim handler, whether CEDR or MCOL. In both cases you have to fill in a form with relevant pieces of information. You can do that, or the handler can, but the handler still needs to get the information out of you one way or the other. Plus they will present their own contract for signing. It's a mug's game really, so best not to be the mug I would say.

It is possible to be paid for Right to Care and not compensation for delays/cancellations - the latter has an "extraordinary circumstance" clause, the former does not.

The Lipton v BACF case is probably more helpful to you since it's more recent, and involved a member of flight crew being ill in Milan.

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2021/454.html
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Old Jul 28, 2023, 2:42 pm
  #1476  
 
Join Date: Jul 2023
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave

... magic words are "our answer will not change".
Thank you very much for pointing out those alternative "magic words". They are definitely included in the most recent reply from BA.

The case you referenced is indeed almost identical with the captain of the plane being the crew member that got sick. The judgment states clearly that it is irrelevant when, how or why the pilot becomes ill. It can never be counted as extraordinary circumstances.

Many thanks !
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Old Jul 29, 2023, 12:17 pm
  #1477  
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
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My day in court is nearly here (well, over a BT PhoneMe phone call hearing), and BA have sent an email to the court and copied me in. Attached were a Witness Statement and a zip file containing a few exhibits. The body of the email contains:
Please note in accordance with Rule 33.2 of the Civil Procedure Rules and Section 2 (1) (a) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 we hereby put you on notice that the Defendant shall not be providing oral evidence to reduce the costs incurred. Further, court attendance would not be proportional to the resources which are available to the Defendant. The Defendant’s witness statement is therefore going to be relied upon as hearsay evidence
There seem to be some - I won't say untruths - inaccuracies in the exhibits provided, but I'm not sure if I need to submit counter arguments/exhibits myself in advance? I did submit a Skeleton Argument to the court, copied to BA, detailing a number of the 'inaccuracies' in their original defence, but I haven't submitted copies of emails, contemporary notes made about phone calls, copy of original receipt, etc as 'exhibits'.
Looking for some advice, please. Thanks if you have any.
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Old Jul 29, 2023, 12:31 pm
  #1478  
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Originally Posted by sayling
There seem to be some - I won't say untruths - inaccuracies in the exhibits provided, but I'm not sure if I need to submit counter arguments/exhibits myself in advance? I did submit a Skeleton Argument to the court, copied to BA, detailing a number of the 'inaccuracies' in their original defence, but I haven't submitted copies of emails, contemporary notes made about phone calls, copy of original receipt, etc as 'exhibits'.
Looking for some advice, please. Thanks if you have any.
The point of the court hearing is to flesh out any issues in their defence and your submissions, so normally it's ok to bring that to the Court on the day. But there are some exceptions - if there is a complex issue of law that you are relying on, when it would be unfair to spring it on the defendants (BA) on the day. Or if there is a substantive material fact that want to rely upon which isn't / wasn't obvious to the defendants. I am not a lawyer, I should say. At Small Claims Court level, though, and with the notable exception of personal injury cases, I would bias towards "not bothering". I have not ever seen a BA defence which is accurate. Some defences clearly belong to someone else altogether. If it's Uxbridge Court they will be well used to this. Now BA have downgraded their own attendance, so that may push the bias towards telling BA in advance, but equally you can see how seriously they are taking your case. You could be sweet to the Court by saying that points A, B and C (etc) are accurate and you don't want them to be taken as hearsay.

If you do decide to say something in advance to BA then send a copy to the Court Clerk, ensure he/she gets it at least a week before the hearing, with a note that it should be added to the paperwork.

A full skeleton would have the 1 or 2 pager of core submission, with each point having "Appendix A", "Appendix B" etc where in that appendix is the extract of law, your contemporary notes etc.

Kindly let us know how it goes, PM me if you want an indirect update in my words rather than yours.
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Old Jul 29, 2023, 12:35 pm
  #1479  
 
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Thanks, corporate-wage-slave - I'll just make sure I've got all my ducks in order and, point by point, identify the errors and hope I have a nice judge on the day!
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Old Jul 30, 2023, 11:42 am
  #1480  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 17
Hi all

need some advise as BA denied my claim, should i go to CEDR? The delay was caused by a mechanical problem with the crew seat and that caused airfield slot delayed.


Your claim's been refused because BA0712 on 20 June 2023 was delayed because of airfield slot delay and start-up delay.Due to the weather conditions Air Traffic Control imposed restrictions on the number of flights that could arrive at Zurich.

London Heathrow is one of the world’s busiest international airports. Over 99.5% of all possible take-off and landing slots are taken up, so any disruption to our normal operation will result in delays and cancellations. Even if our operation is only disrupted for a short period of time in the morning, this can have a knock-on effect for the rest of the day.

Thanks in advance!
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Old Jul 30, 2023, 12:03 pm
  #1481  
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Originally Posted by gambud
need some advise as BA denied my claim, should i go to CEDR?!
Yes.
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Old Jul 31, 2023, 5:19 am
  #1482  
 
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Hello all. I’m hoping for some advice. I apologize for the length of this, but a sequence of unfortunate things happened that are outlined here. I tried to be as succinct as possible. My family of 4 are U.S. based travelers and had some recent bad luck traveling from London to Sicily. Here are the facts:


1. Our BA2842 flight from LGW-CTA on 27/7/2023 was cancelled with about 18 hours notice on 26/7/2023. I assume this was due to the recent CTA terminal fire, which is causing major problems and seems like something that is “beyond BA’s control”.

2. Trying to get rebooked over the phone was difficult - I was told there were no options up to about a week out, from any of the LON airports to either CTA or PMO. Waiting that long would have derailed our vacation so we decided to abandon our non-refundable hotel reservation at the Sofitel London Gatwick and try our luck talking to someone at LHR. This is the day before the original flight and we were in central London at the time.

3. At LHR we seemed to have some better luck. We were rebooked on BA560 from LHR-FCO the next day, 27/7/2023, the same day as our original flight. Then connecting to a Flexflight FCO-PMO flight operated by Aeroitalia. The agent was not able to print paper tickets for the connecting flight and said we would pick them up at FCO.

The connection time in FCO was only one hour, which I questioned but was told not to worry as our bags would be checked all the way through and the timing would be no problem. We would be arriving at our destination on the same day as the original flight and only about 12 hours late. BA gave us hotel and meal vouchers. I was happy and relieved.

4. When we were at the hotel getting ready to sleep I became more uncomfortable with the short connection time in FCO that we were given. We decided we would go to the airport early in the morning to try and switch to an earlier LHR-FCO flight.

5. At the airport the next morning we were denied the earlier flight even though 4 business class seats were available. “Business class” = economy seats with blocked off middle seats.

The agent also told me that we were never actually booked on the connecting Flexflight/Aeroitalia FCO-PMO flight. She couldn’t see it, operationally their systems cannot do such a thing, and there was simply no possible way we could be ticketed on it. After about an hour, after looking into alternatives, she advised that our only reasonable option was to take the already ticketed BA LHR-FCO flight in a couple of hours and buy separate tickets from FCO-PMO. Tough to swallow but since going to Sicily was the main part of our vacation with important family events happening I decided eating the extra cost was something we had to do. So I purchased 4 non-refundable tickets on the last Aeroitalia flight of the day, costing about 1,100 Euros.

6. We flew from LHR to FCO on BA560 on 27/7/2023. The flight was about 30 minutes late arriving, I believe due to an ATC delay leaving LHR. Even if we had been ticketed on the connecting flight we wouldn’t have made it.

At FCO I decided to check with a BA agent to confirm our return flight from CTA-LGW on 6/8/2023 was not deleted as a result of the changes that were made to the inbound flights. During that process the agent was able to see that despite what we were told at LHR a few hours earlier, we were indeed ticketed on the Flexflight/Aeroitalia connecting flight from FCO-PMO! (which we had just missed because of the late arrival and unreasonable connection time to begin with)

7. Because of the misconnect, BA rebooked us on an ITA flight from FCO-PMO the next morning, 28/7/2023, and gave us hotel and meal vouchers. We were advised to take the ITA flight so that our itinerary would be fully completed and our return trip would not be cancelled. The separate tickets I bought on the Aeroitalia flight would go unused and were non-refundable.

8. We arrived in PMO about 22 hours later than our original flight (not a big deal) and 1,100 euros lighter in the wallet (a very big deal).


Is there anything I can do here?

1. The short notice cancellation of the original LGW-CTA flight left us with minimal options for rebooking. I had no idea about the CTA terminal fire at the time, but later found news articles from a week earlier that said the terminal would be closed until early August. I believe BA should have known it was going to be a problem well ahead of -18 hours. I understand this is something that they will likely say is out of their control and isn’t likely to be covered by UK261.

2. I got bad information from an agent at LHR that ultimately cost me 1,100 euros. I wish I had questioned the information and not reacted so quickly. But travel to Sicily right now is a mess and I felt the need to act quickly when I saw available seats and was convinced by BA there were no other reasonable options. This one hurts.

3. BA560 arriving late on 27/7/2023 caused us to misconnect and be delayed overnight, but if it’s related to ATC then I don’t think we have a leg to stand on.
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Old Jul 31, 2023, 6:20 am
  #1483  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Originally Posted by sayling
My day in court is nearly here
From your previously posted timelines, I had thought that I was going to be only several weeks behind you with my similar claim (AMEX241/GUF2/FtoJ downgrade), however my Uxbridge County Court BT PhoneMe date has just been set for November.
Please do keep us updated on how it pans out for you.
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Old Jul 31, 2023, 7:42 am
  #1484  
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Originally Posted by captaintommy
1. The short notice cancellation of the original LGW-CTA flight left us with minimal options for rebooking. I had no idea about the CTA terminal fire at the time, but later found news articles from a week earlier that said the terminal would be closed until early August. I believe BA should have known it was going to be a problem well ahead of -18 hours. I understand this is something that they will likely say is out of their control and isn’t likely to be covered by UK261.

2. I got bad information from an agent at LHR that ultimately cost me 1,100 euros. I wish I had questioned the information and not reacted so quickly. But travel to Sicily right now is a mess and I felt the need to act quickly when I saw available seats and was convinced by BA there were no other reasonable options. This one hurts.

3. BA560 arriving late on 27/7/2023 caused us to misconnect and be delayed overnight, but if it’s related to ATC then I don’t think we have a leg to stand on.
Welcome to Flyertalk and welcome to the BA Forum.

I'm sorry to read about this, but at least you have found the right place to get advice. Hopefully it won't happen again but even for short term decisions you can always check here, someone is usually available to give advice. So for the ticketed flight to Palermo, there is a Finnair e-ticket emailer which can tell you what is really sitting in Amadeus on your booking, for example. I do try to urge caution even in irrops, there are actually many, many ways to get to PMO even if it's not always apparent at the time, thanks to Low Cost Carriers (and ferries!).

Clearly you need to get BA to at least try to refund the extra tickets you bought in good faith. I'm not optimistic, it has the hallmark of looking messy. It's the airline's responsibility to get rebooked, and if you have a combined ticket for the next flight, as it turned out, then even if you miss the flight the onward ticket can be used as a basis for a replacement. So the 1 hour issue isn't really a problem, you won't get to PMO any sooner or necessarily any later with that missed connection. Buying a separate ticket is always a separate contract in Europe, so yes, that may have been somewhat hasty. However you were relying on information (probably someone looking at FLY not Amadeus) and were acting in good faith. So try to reclaim from BA, but expect it to go to CEDR. Even there, I'm not confident it would go your way, unfortunately.

I can't see any basis for compensation so far, The ATC and fire issues were well known events and there wasn't much BA could do about them. However your other Right to Care expenses such as food and taxis should not be controversial and will be paid.
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Old Aug 1, 2023, 8:06 am
  #1485  
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 567
Originally Posted by captaintommy
Hello all. I’m hoping for some advice. I apologize for the length of this, but a sequence of unfortunate things happened that are outlined here. I tried to be as succinct as possible. My family of 4 are U.S. based travelers and had some recent bad luck traveling from London to Sicily. Here are the facts:


1. Our BA2842 flight from LGW-CTA on 27/7/2023 was cancelled with about 18 hours notice on 26/7/2023. I assume this was due to the recent CTA terminal fire, which is causing major problems and seems like something that is “beyond BA’s control”.

2. Trying to get rebooked over the phone was difficult - I was told there were no options up to about a week out, from any of the LON airports to either CTA or PMO. Waiting that long would have derailed our vacation so we decided to abandon our non-refundable hotel reservation at the Sofitel London Gatwick and try our luck talking to someone at LHR. This is the day before the original flight and we were in central London at the time.

3. At LHR we seemed to have some better luck. We were rebooked on BA560 from LHR-FCO the next day, 27/7/2023, the same day as our original flight. Then connecting to a Flexflight FCO-PMO flight operated by Aeroitalia. The agent was not able to print paper tickets for the connecting flight and said we would pick them up at FCO.

The connection time in FCO was only one hour, which I questioned but was told not to worry as our bags would be checked all the way through and the timing would be no problem. We would be arriving at our destination on the same day as the original flight and only about 12 hours late. BA gave us hotel and meal vouchers. I was happy and relieved.

4. When we were at the hotel getting ready to sleep I became more uncomfortable with the short connection time in FCO that we were given. We decided we would go to the airport early in the morning to try and switch to an earlier LHR-FCO flight.

5. At the airport the next morning we were denied the earlier flight even though 4 business class seats were available. “Business class” = economy seats with blocked off middle seats.

The agent also told me that we were never actually booked on the connecting Flexflight/Aeroitalia FCO-PMO flight. She couldn’t see it, operationally their systems cannot do such a thing, and there was simply no possible way we could be ticketed on it. After about an hour, after looking into alternatives, she advised that our only reasonable option was to take the already ticketed BA LHR-FCO flight in a couple of hours and buy separate tickets from FCO-PMO. Tough to swallow but since going to Sicily was the main part of our vacation with important family events happening I decided eating the extra cost was something we had to do. So I purchased 4 non-refundable tickets on the last Aeroitalia flight of the day, costing about 1,100 Euros.

6. We flew from LHR to FCO on BA560 on 27/7/2023. The flight was about 30 minutes late arriving, I believe due to an ATC delay leaving LHR. Even if we had been ticketed on the connecting flight we wouldn’t have made it.

At FCO I decided to check with a BA agent to confirm our return flight from CTA-LGW on 6/8/2023 was not deleted as a result of the changes that were made to the inbound flights. During that process the agent was able to see that despite what we were told at LHR a few hours earlier, we were indeed ticketed on the Flexflight/Aeroitalia connecting flight from FCO-PMO! (which we had just missed because of the late arrival and unreasonable connection time to begin with)

7. Because of the misconnect, BA rebooked us on an ITA flight from FCO-PMO the next morning, 28/7/2023, and gave us hotel and meal vouchers. We were advised to take the ITA flight so that our itinerary would be fully completed and our return trip would not be cancelled. The separate tickets I bought on the Aeroitalia flight would go unused and were non-refundable.

8. We arrived in PMO about 22 hours later than our original flight (not a big deal) and 1,100 euros lighter in the wallet (a very big deal).


Is there anything I can do here?

1. The short notice cancellation of the original LGW-CTA flight left us with minimal options for rebooking. I had no idea about the CTA terminal fire at the time, but later found news articles from a week earlier that said the terminal would be closed until early August. I believe BA should have known it was going to be a problem well ahead of -18 hours. I understand this is something that they will likely say is out of their control and isn’t likely to be covered by UK261.

2. I got bad information from an agent at LHR that ultimately cost me 1,100 euros. I wish I had questioned the information and not reacted so quickly. But travel to Sicily right now is a mess and I felt the need to act quickly when I saw available seats and was convinced by BA there were no other reasonable options. This one hurts.

3. BA560 arriving late on 27/7/2023 caused us to misconnect and be delayed overnight, but if it’s related to ATC then I don’t think we have a leg to stand on.
I think you need to ask BA to reimburse the 1100 euros based on the wrong information you were given. If BA refuse (and I think they probably will), then MCOL them and use the other passengers in your booking as witnesses for the hearing. Having sued BA before in MCOL, they fought me tooth and nail so a hearing is likely (BA do not seem to 'settle). However I think you would be successful at a hearing (provided you had witness statements, and proof of the two bookings as a Judge will likely agree you would not have booked separate tickets if BA had not advised you to).
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