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The 2023 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261 / UK261

Old Jan 1, 2023, 11:31 am
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The 2023 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261 / UK261

Old May 22, 2023, 2:49 pm
  #916  
 
Join Date: Jan 2023
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Originally Posted by Emma Heady
We put in our CEDR 1st May, have today had an email saying we have a message on our account. I thought we were in luck but it seems to be a holding message of sorts.

We wish to advise you that your application for CEDR’s Aviation Adjudication Scheme appears to be eligible and can progress to the next stage of the process.

However, due to the current exceptionally high volumes of cases that CEDR has received, we may need to extend some of the timescales for processing your case. This needs to be done so that your case can be given thorough and careful consideration. Rest assured that you will receive a final decision from the adjudicator within 90 calendar days of the date on which we receive the complete case file.’

Does this stage mean they’ve requested info from BA? I didn’t realise the 90 days wouldn’t start until they heard back from BA, am I reading that correctly?
I got similar message today about my claim which went to CEDR 28th March. They requested more info from me last month so I am happy to see the message today. At least now I know they are working the case.
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Old May 22, 2023, 2:54 pm
  #917  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
On short services usually the downgrade reimbursement is fairly low thanks to Mennens and the 30% reimbursement for trips under 1500 km. See the wiki as to how the calculation is done. So I would normally just ask Customer Relations to give an Avios gesture instead of going through the slow process of calculating the refund. However it seems like your complaint is one of the many that are stuck, so at 8 weeks you best go to CEDR if only to get a track on the complaint.
If no Avios gesture is forthcoming (or the amount offered isn't acceptable), it seems like this could be a candidate for claiming back the additional amount paid for CE for the relevant leg, which would likely amount to much more than the Mennens/UK-EU261 compensation. It seems a pretty straightforward breach of contract - not for the delay of course, which was outside BA's control, but for the downgrade.

I suppose the issue would be proving what the equivalent ET fare was at the time of booking, presuming it was a cash booking rather than a redemption (in which case it's straightforward). It pays to take screenshots of that when booking...
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Old May 23, 2023, 2:19 am
  #918  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
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Theoretical Scenario

Good morning all,

I do hope you don’t mind a quick thread hijack, albeit I’ve just directed two former colleagues to this thread who were hitherto unaware of and have found it most useful to gather information for a claim they will now be making.

During our chat the following question was posed and I came up short, so perhaps the more learned will be able to assist.

The scenario is a same day return to a European/UK destination. You arrive for a early/mid morning departure ex LHR and returning back to LHR that same evening. The destination has multiple return flights to it (say FRA) and your flight gets a creeping delay. Eventually the flight is cancelled and you are rebooked on the next departure, late afternoon but this will cause you to misconnected with your return leg.
Now in normal circumstances I’m sure we’d all moan, knock the plan on the head and if it has been more than 5 hours iirc get a full refund.

IF you DID accept the outbound change AND travel, you end up misconnecting with the last flight of the day back to UK is full and you are forced to overnight at your destination, would you in effect be able to get a free nights stay on the carrier and also EU261 delay/cancellation compensation? Assuming of course the delay wasn’t caused by extraordinary circumstances which for the purposes of this theoretical scenario we will assume some sort of mechanical issue.
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Old May 23, 2023, 2:42 am
  #919  
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Originally Posted by ACARS
IF you DID accept the outbound change AND travel, you end up misconnecting with the last flight of the day back to UK is full and you are forced to overnight at your destination, would you in effect be able to get a free nights stay on the carrier and also EU261 delay/cancellation compensation? Assuming of course the delay wasn’t caused by extraordinary circumstances which for the purposes of this theoretical scenario we will assume some sort of mechanical issue.
Right to care always applies, even if extraordinary circumstances. Compensation can be denied if there are extraordinary circumstances.

In this case the critical aspect would be if both sets of flights were on a single PNR or not. If they are separate PNRs then the view is that these are separate contracts and therefore it's your responsibility to get to FRA on time for the FRA-LHR sector. This could be challenged via legal proceedings, but the main understanding is that if you want BA to assist for the return sector then it needs to be on the same PNR as the outbound. It's not a particularly odd scenario, there are a range of airports which are day trip locations - AMS, BRU, DUS, FRA, EDI, GLA to give some examples - and it's rare but not unprecedented for there to be an unexpected overnight stay.
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Old May 23, 2023, 5:15 am
  #920  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
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I've just had my compensation claim denied and just wanted to check if I should take it further.

My GLA-LHR flight at 21:10 was cancelled due to technical reasons (confirmed in the claim denied email) 48 hours before the flight.
I was rebooked on the 21:20 EDI-LHR flight, which was not suitable to me since it was impossible for me to get to Edinburgh airport for that time from Glasgow, so I cancelled/refunded the booking and had to make my own way to London the following day.

The response I have had is that since the Edinburgh flight I was offered (which was delayed on the day) only arrived 70 minutes after I was originally due to arrive, it was within 120 mins and I therefore wasn't due compensation.

I'm struggling to find any info about compensation when your point of origin changes, since most of it talks about point of arrival, so trying to figure out how to respond
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Old May 23, 2023, 5:59 am
  #921  
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
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Originally Posted by DeltaB
I've just had my compensation claim denied and just wanted to check if I should take it further.

My GLA-LHR flight at 21:10 was cancelled due to technical reasons (confirmed in the claim denied email) 48 hours before the flight.
I was rebooked on the 21:20 EDI-LHR flight, which was not suitable to me since it was impossible for me to get to Edinburgh airport for that time from Glasgow, so I cancelled/refunded the booking and had to make my own way to London the following day.

The response I have had is that since the Edinburgh flight I was offered (which was delayed on the day) only arrived 70 minutes after I was originally due to arrive, it was within 120 mins and I therefore wasn't due compensation.

I'm struggling to find any info about compensation when your point of origin changes, since most of it talks about point of arrival, so trying to figure out how to respond
You didnt fly and got a refund. Therefore you were not delayed and no compensation due under EU261.
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Old May 23, 2023, 6:03 am
  #922  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
Right to care always applies, even if extraordinary circumstances. Compensation can be denied if there are extraordinary circumstances.

In this case the critical aspect would be if both sets of flights were on a single PNR or not. If they are separate PNRs then the view is that these are separate contracts and therefore it's your responsibility to get to FRA on time for the FRA-LHR sector. This could be challenged via legal proceedings, but the main understanding is that if you want BA to assist for the return sector then it needs to be on the same PNR as the outbound. It's not a particularly odd scenario, there are a range of airports which are day trip locations - AMS, BRU, DUS, FRA, EDI, GLA to give some examples - and it's rare but not unprecedented for there to be an unexpected overnight stay.

Thank you CWS for your response and it is as I thought, although I was a little hesitant to go all in with my interpretation. I’m this case I did indeed theorise a single PNR, round trip day booking.

The reason it came up in conversation was due to a delay on a BA LHR-MAD with an onward connection to XRY. The MAD was creeping and eventually they arrived 90 or so minutes after the MAD-XRY departed. The XRY was held intact despite the obvious misconnected which prompted the question about a BA metal same day return. Plenty of anecdotal evidence on previous years 261 threads of same metal obvious misconnected being preserved and not altered.

Anyway, short of wishing to engage in a fabulous weissbier fuelled night out in Sachsenhausen on BA’s compensation tally, I can’t see anyone really wishing to avail themselves of this quirk in the workings of the regulation and BA’s rebooking bots.

Thanks again.

Last edited by ACARS; May 23, 2023 at 6:20 am
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Old May 23, 2023, 7:08 am
  #923  
 
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Originally Posted by cvision
...

Filed it under cancelled/idb for now, though it shouldn't really matter IMO, since I'll end up in DUS over 6 hours late.
So this happened (and was filed) on April 29th. No response beyond the weekly(?) "we are hard at work or hardly working" generic email.
If they don't move until mid-July (80 days) I should take it straight to CEDR, since I'm neither based in the UK nor a UK citizen, right?
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Old May 23, 2023, 9:16 am
  #924  
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Originally Posted by DeltaB
The response I have had is that since the Edinburgh flight I was offered (which was delayed on the day) only arrived 70 minutes after I was originally due to arrive, it was within 120 mins and I therefore wasn't due compensation.

I'm struggling to find any info about compensation when your point of origin changes, since most of it talks about point of arrival, so trying to figure out how to respond
OK, I'm wondering if you were a little hasty on the cancellation. Since EDI is less than one hour by cab from central Glasgow (and GLA is 10-15 minutes in the other direction) I think it's reasonable for BA to offer the EDI alternative. Hang on to the words "I think". Indeed the objective of EC261 is to encourage airlines to do precisely what BA have done. So the compensation element is going to be tricky given the clear alternative, and BA would have paid the taxi if that was the only option.

The other aspect is rebooking - if you are cancelled you have the choice of a rebooking or a cancel/refund. If you choose rebooking - and this could be a train service - then BA have to pay for that. Hence the advice often mentioned here to be careful or even lethargic about going for refunds. And even if nothing else, a rebooked ticket may well be more valuable than anything else here.

The "I think" bit is because some of this is subjective - whether EDI counts as a valid replacement for GLA for example. Article 8 doesn't say it has got to be from the exact same airport and generally LHR to LGW is considered a valid rerouting and the distances between these pair isn't that different. (40-50 miles). You said it was impossible for you to get to EDI, so you could ask CEDR to consider it to see if there is some scope there, but I don't fancy your chances.
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Old May 24, 2023, 5:46 am
  #925  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
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BA55 12th Apr - 4hrs delay - BA refusing compensation

This is BA’s response: “Your claim's been refused because BA0055 on 12 April 2023 was delayed because the planned operating aircraft required lightning inspection on arrival at London Heathrow.”

I understand from previous cases in court, some judges have ruled that delays caused by lightning strikes are not a valid excuse for airlines not to pay compensation.

I’ve been reading that Bott & Co Solicitors successfully argued that lightning strikes cannot be considered extraordinary because they are part of the day to day running of any airline:“Aircraft fly through the skies. On occasion they are struck by lightning. They are designed to withstand such lightning strikes, continue flying, reach their destination and then be investigated and repaired according to the manufacturer’s instructions.”

“This is not extraordinary. It is entirely inherent in the normal exercise of the carrier’s activity and that is exactly what happened in this case.”

Can someone please help me on how to proceed about this case?

Appreciate your help in advance!
Many thanks.
Giorgio
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Old May 24, 2023, 6:05 am
  #926  
 
Join Date: May 2019
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Originally Posted by Giorgiok86
This is BA’s response: “Your claim's been refused because BA0055 on 12 April 2023 was delayed because the planned operating aircraft required lightning inspection on arrival at London Heathrow.”

I understand from previous cases in court, some judges have ruled that delays caused by lightning strikes are not a valid excuse for airlines not to pay compensation.

I’ve been reading that Bott & Co Solicitors successfully argued that lightning strikes cannot be considered extraordinary because they are part of the day to day running of any airline:“Aircraft fly through the skies. On occasion they are struck by lightning. They are designed to withstand such lightning strikes, continue flying, reach their destination and then be investigated and repaired according to the manufacturer’s instructions.”

“This is not extraordinary. It is entirely inherent in the normal exercise of the carrier’s activity and that is exactly what happened in this case.”

Can someone please help me on how to proceed about this case?

Appreciate your help in advance!
Many thanks.
Giorgio
That's certainly one argument, although I don't think there's any binding authority on whether lightning strikes count as 'inherent in the normal activity' or not (there's been a few County Court decisions either way).

The other point to make (and probably the more relevant one in my mind) is that this was a flight originating in LHR, which is BA's main base. As such, one of the reasonable measures BA should apply to satisfy the 'all reasonable measures' test is to have spare aircraft available for such eventualities. Their evident failure to do so means they failed to apply all reasonable measures.

It's different to flying in from an outstation, where BA (generally) couldn't reasonably be expected to have spare aircraft.

As for next steps, I'd respond to BA with a one-liner asking them to confirm whether this is their final response (if the email doesn't already specify). Then if they say it is (hopefully you should hear back quickly - short emails tend to get a quicker response), or 8 weeks have passed from your initial claim, take the matter to CEDR.
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Old May 24, 2023, 6:44 am
  #927  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: London
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Originally Posted by flarmip
That's certainly one argument, although I don't think there's any binding authority on whether lightning strikes count as 'inherent in the normal activity' or not (there's been a few County Court decisions either way).

The other point to make (and probably the more relevant one in my mind) is that this was a flight originating in LHR, which is BA's main base. As such, one of the reasonable measures BA should apply to satisfy the 'all reasonable measures' test is to have spare aircraft available for such eventualities. Their evident failure to do so means they failed to apply all reasonable measures.

It's different to flying in from an outstation, where BA (generally) couldn't reasonably be expected to have spare aircraft.

As for next steps, I'd respond to BA with a one-liner asking them to confirm whether this is their final response (if the email doesn't already specify). Then if they say it is (hopefully you should hear back quickly - short emails tend to get a quicker response), or 8 weeks have passed from your initial claim, take the matter to CEDR.
Thanks for the quick response flarmip
I appreciate your suggestion that BA should have been better prepared at their main base.

I also recall that it wasn’t a short turnaround as it normally happens with some flights…I remember from looking at Flightradar24 at the time, the aircraft landed at Heathrow in the late morning, before getting ready for the evening flight.
I’m not an expert on this, but I feel BA had over 8hrs to go through the checks and in case plenty of time to arrange a different aircraft for the evening Johannesburg flight.
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Old May 24, 2023, 6:57 am
  #928  
 
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Looking for some advice on a completely different issue for a US-EU-EU flight (EU carrier).
Ticket was bought Oct/22 with a valid MCT of 1h5m, since then (Mar this year) the MCT was increased to 1h20m. Itinerary has not been changed or re-validated as far as I can tell. One cannot buy the existing connection anymore or pull it up on ITA, the individual flights are wide open still.

Since the connection is now violating MCT, under which category - if any - would this fall? Surely not delay but maybe cancellation, since the flights cannot be flown anymore? Rerouting is likely not preferable so would be looking at refund of unused portion + potential comp.

Of course, if they do attempt to make the change at T-14d there's no comp.
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Old May 24, 2023, 7:46 am
  #929  
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Originally Posted by cvision
Looking for some advice on a completely different issue for a US-EU-EU flight (EU carrier).
Ticket was bought Oct/22 with a valid MCT of 1h5m, since then (Mar this year) the MCT was increased to 1h20m. Itinerary has not been changed or re-validated as far as I can tell. One cannot buy the existing connection anymore or pull it up on ITA, the individual flights are wide open still.
Usually if MCT changes after a ticket is issued then the original ticketing and check-in will work - it's if you change the ticketing that it won't compute. So in theory you can go ahead with travel and if everything is on time it will all work out. MCT only kicks in during the start of the ticketing process, it doesn't affect operations.
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Old May 24, 2023, 7:52 am
  #930  
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Originally Posted by Giorgiok86
“This is not extraordinary. It is entirely inherent in the normal exercise of the carrier’s activity and that is exactly what happened in this case.”

Can someone please help me on how to proceed about this case?
Bird strike and lightning are often treat in a similar way, and are heavily influenced by the CJEU ruling of Marcela Pešková and Jiří Peška v Travel Service a.s.. In short the actual event - the lightning or bird strike - maybe extraordinary but what happens next is over to the airline to resolve and that is firmly not extraordinary circumstances. In the Pešková case the airline was unreasonable in taking so long to deal with the matter. Here LHR being the intergalactic head office of BA then they should have spare aircraft. Well they don't of course, but that's BA's commercial decision. If it was an outstation they would be allowed some time to check the aircraft, but that isn't the case here. So usual advice: CEDR at 8 weeks.
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