Compensation claim refused due to "Air Traffic control"
Nov 25, 22, 11:48 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2022
Posts: 10
Compensation claim refused due to "Air Traffic control"
Background: In July 2022, I flew BER-LHR-JFK with British Airways. My flight from BER to LHR was delayed so that I missed my connecting flight. They rebooked me onto a flight 2 days later and gave me a voucher for a hotel for the 1st night (the 2nd night I paid for myself along with transport and food that amounted to $261.68). In my claim I had asked for $600 (compensation) + $261.68 (reimbursement for expenses). I finally received an email from BA saying that they will reimburse me for the $261.68 but apart from that I'm not entitled to any compensation because "Air Traffic Control restricted operations" (see below). Has this happened to anybody else? Is there any way for me to challenge this? Thanks! >Dear chupanebray, An update from British Airways Thanks for contacting us about your claim for compensation. We're sorry it was necessary to delay your flight to London Heathrow from Berlin on 24th July 2022. Your claim's been refused because BA0993 on 24th July 2022 was delayed because Air Traffic Control restricted operations as the ATC allocated delay in slot for BA0933, due to ATC capacity restrictions in Europe. Im afraid this was out of our control and caused unforeseen disruption to our schedule. However, I have managed to look into your claim for expenses and I'm pleased to inform you're entitled to compensation $261.68 which would be paid directly to you within 28 business days. We take all reasonable measures to avoid disruption to a flight and we always consider if there are any other alternative solutions before, we make a decision. Thanks again for following this up with us. Please feel free to contact us if we can help you any further and I hope we have the chance to welcome you on board again soon. Best regards British Airways Customer Relations
Nov 25, 22, 11:57 am
#2
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Welcome to Flyertalk and welcome to the BA forum.
A two day delay to NYC is not sustainable. Moreover if there was any airlne with seats available in the meantime, which BA could have used but chose not to use, then it's on the hook for compensation even if Extraordinary Circumstances does apply. That's CJEU case LE versus TAP. There is a thread here devoted to EC261 and it's here.
The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
I would suggest you do no engage further with BA, ask them to confirm this is their final answer, then take the matter to CEDR - referrring to that CJEU law case. Full details in the main thread.
A two day delay to NYC is not sustainable. Moreover if there was any airlne with seats available in the meantime, which BA could have used but chose not to use, then it's on the hook for compensation even if Extraordinary Circumstances does apply. That's CJEU case LE versus TAP. There is a thread here devoted to EC261 and it's here.
The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
I would suggest you do no engage further with BA, ask them to confirm this is their final answer, then take the matter to CEDR - referrring to that CJEU law case. Full details in the main thread.
Nov 25, 22, 12:05 pm
#4
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I'll spare you the long and complicated history of that flight, but the short answer is that the ATC attributable delay was 10 minutes, and that was only because the turn around took much longer than planned and BA didn't update the departure time. Everything else in the delay is due to the long turnaround.
Nov 25, 22, 2:33 pm
#5
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Join Date: Nov 2022
Posts: 10
I'll spare you the long and complicated history of that flight, but the short answer is that the ATC attributable delay was 10 minutes, and that was only because the turn around took much longer than planned and BA didn't update the departure time. Everything else in the delay is due to the long turnaround.
Do you know where I can find the ATC information you just described? I assume this is something I will have to provide when I file my complaint with the CEDR?
Nov 25, 22, 2:41 pm
#6
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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Thank you all for your helpful responses! I will do what @corporate-wage-slave suggested.
Do you know where I can find the ATC information you just described? I assume this is something I will have to provide when I file my complaint with the CEDR?
Do you know where I can find the ATC information you just described? I assume this is something I will have to provide when I file my complaint with the CEDR?
Nov 25, 22, 3:48 pm
#7
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2022
Posts: 10
No it is not for you to prove your case, it's for BA to do that. So clearly you need to be vigilant when BA sends over to you their detailed submission. Most of which will be general guff, but they usually supply a page or two of specific information and you now know what to look for. I would also be particularly interested in their reason for not finding you an alternative flight in 2 days. By all means revert back when that happens for further advice. It's just possible that BA will crumble when they get the information together, you will just have to be patient until that happens.
Nov 25, 22, 7:49 pm
#8
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Same thing happened to me although I only had a one night delay. BA told me to pound sand. That was my last BA trip through LHR. BA would have been better off doing the right thing and collecting 5 more business class ticket revenue from me that was allocated elsewhere.
Nov 25, 22, 8:20 pm
#9
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,365
I know 8/10 customers will give up before the payout so there's a gamble it'll pay off in their favour... but in the process they're quite happy to leave 20% of their customers with a bad taste towards future transactions. I'm not sure I could run my business like that.
Anecdotally I helped a business acquaintance file for delay compensation back in May from a ME carrier.... they've finally just responded offering him the cash he's entitled to 6 months later ... or a 20% higher amount in future travel vouchers. My business acquaintance having slagged the carrier every time we've spoken in the past 6 months vowing never to fly with them again only wanted to take the vouchers.... we had to have another chat to make him realize he needs to hit them in the wallet to have any impact... no mater how small the gesture in the great scheme, cash is cash at the end of the day and will be eating away at a bottom line in the airlines accounts structure somewhere. Small victories and power to the people.
I genuinely wish and hope your loyalty to your chosen other airline is a mutually appreciated one.
Last edited by 1Aturnleft; Nov 25, 22 at 8:26 pm
Jan 11, 23, 4:51 pm
#10
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York, NY
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Posts: 97
Hope no one minds me resurrecting this thread. I flew on BA827 on Dec 16. Flight was scheduled for 17:50 arrival 19:20 and ended up being 22:00 and 23:06 arrival. There was a delay of the incoming aircraft due to bad weather earlier in the day with the plane arriving into London from Vienna then onto Dublin, but after it arrived at 19:28 and we boarded at 8pm there was no grounds crew at Dublin to load bags/catering onto the flight - Cabin crew were great throughout and we were told by the captain that the delay on the ground was due to lack of staff available. Ended up being stuck on the plane for 2 hrs before take off so departure ended up being 4hr 16 min late and arrival 3hr 39 min from schedule time.
Submitted claim through BA to see what they say but they came back with the generic "Air Traffic control" and have since recommended going through CEDR.
Wanted to see if it's worth pursuing through CEDR? Appreciate the help!
Submitted claim through BA to see what they say but they came back with the generic "Air Traffic control" and have since recommended going through CEDR.
Wanted to see if it's worth pursuing through CEDR? Appreciate the help!
Jan 11, 23, 4:59 pm
#11
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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So it looks to me that BA could portray the ATC delays as adding enough time to take you over 3 hours on arrival. There's 39 minutes at stake here, and while some/most is due to DUB ground handling, it's not all due to that. So on the face of it, this doesn't seem a strong case at that level. The possible area CEDR may consider is whether BA took all reasonable measures here. I guess you haven't got anything to lose, other than some time preparing the material, but as I say, not the strongest case here.
Jan 11, 23, 7:01 pm
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2022
Posts: 10
Not sure if it's helpful for you because our cases appear to be very different, but I can give a quick update on my status.
I ended up filing with CEDR, and after checking my case, they told me that it was eligible for their scheme and that it has advanced to the next stage (which I assume means that they demanded answers from BA on my behalf). They will let send me a decision within 90 days from mid-December, so I don't know the outcome yet. But I will report back!
I ended up filing with CEDR, and after checking my case, they told me that it was eligible for their scheme and that it has advanced to the next stage (which I assume means that they demanded answers from BA on my behalf). They will let send me a decision within 90 days from mid-December, so I don't know the outcome yet. But I will report back!
Jan 11, 23, 9:43 pm
#13
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York, NY
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Jan 12, 23, 1:00 am
#14
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 684
BA purposedly misleading people for their own financial gain is fraud surely? We hear of this time and time again, iwith many people probably accepting BA's initial answer.
It's shame BA cant be taken to task and fined heavily for this.
It's shame BA cant be taken to task and fined heavily for this.
Feb 17, 23, 8:29 am
#15
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2022
Posts: 10
This morning, through CEDR I received BA's defence. It's a 4-page pdf, so i'm just gonna post the parts of it which I think are most important. I have the option to comment on their defense (any advice here would be appreciated). Next the adjudicator will make their final decision. Here comes BA's defense...
Flight BA993 was scheduled to depart from BER on 24 July 2022 at 12:25 GMT (14:25 local time) and to arrive at LHR T5 (Terminal 5) at 14:25 GMT (15:25 local time).
Flight AA107 (BA1510) to depart from LHR T3 (Terminal 3) on 24 July 2022 at 16:00 GMT (17:00 local time) and to arrive at JFK at 00:05 GMT on 25 July 2022 (20:05 local time on 24 July 2022).
BA993 was delayed on arrival at LHR by 41 minutes. The attached flight record shows it was delayed for the following reasons:
• RA - rotational delay of three minutes – British Airways accepts responsibility for this time
• PS - passenger convenience – a medical emergency occurred during the aircraft’s previous flight of BA992 to BER (see attached log BA992 ACARS). The flight had to be met by paramedics which delayed other customers from leaving the aircraft. This then delayed the boarding of BA993. British Airways will defend this 15-minute delay.
• RS - cabin crew rotation – these 20 minutes are related to the medical emergency as the crew were assisting the passenger.
However, these delays did not cause the late departure of BA993 because the flight was waiting for a slot to be allocated. ATC (Air Traffic Control) capacity restrictions through German airspace meant the flight was being allocated slot delays (see attached log Restriction Code beginning ED, BA993 CFMU).
...
Although the slot delay varied from the initial 13-minute delay given at 10:25 GMT, the 20-minute slot delay given at 12:14 GMT, 11 minutes before the flight was due to depart, would have meant it would not have been airborne until 12:53 GMT. If the flight had then had the season’s average flying time (EET / estimated elapsed time) of 92 minutes and the average taxi-in time of 17 minutes, it would not have arrived on stand until 14:42 GMT. Even using the flight’s own times, of a 90-minute EET and 14-minute taxi-in time, the flight would not have arrived until 14:37 GMT (see attached log BA993 blocktimes).
At 12:43 GMT the slot delay increased to 53 minutes meaning the flight would not have been airborne until 13:46 GMT. The final slot delay gave an airborne time of 13:13 GMT.
The flight had to have arrived on stand at LHR by 14:30 GMT for the Claimant to have the minimum connection time (MCT) they needed to reach flight AA107 in time. The flight would have had to have been airborne by 12:41 GMT.
...
The MCT within a terminal at LHR has been set at 60 minutes and the MCT between terminals is set at 90 minutes. The Claimant’s MCT was therefore 90 minutes.
...
Since the slot delays alone would have resulted in the Claimant missing his connection, British Airways denies the claim for compensation. The slot delays were caused by air traffic management decisions which were the result of capacity restrictions.
There were no reasonable measures that could have been taken by British Airways to avoid the delay to BA993.
...
There were no economically viable options that would have allowed BA993 to operate to time or with delays lower than occurred. Any aircraft would have had the same slot delays.
Having missed AA107 on 24 July 2022, British Airways was unable to offer the Claimant a confirmed booking on an alternative flight. The last British Airways flight to JFK on 24 July had departed at 15:15 GMT. Our Revenue Management team were asked if they could release a seat for the Claimant on 25 July, but they were unable to assist.
A booking for 26 July was held. The Claimant travelled on BA117 on 26 July 2022.
...
I trust we have provided sufficient information for you to be satisfied we have considered our obligations in line with the Regulation correctly.
Flight AA107 (BA1510) to depart from LHR T3 (Terminal 3) on 24 July 2022 at 16:00 GMT (17:00 local time) and to arrive at JFK at 00:05 GMT on 25 July 2022 (20:05 local time on 24 July 2022).
BA993 was delayed on arrival at LHR by 41 minutes. The attached flight record shows it was delayed for the following reasons:
• RA - rotational delay of three minutes – British Airways accepts responsibility for this time
• PS - passenger convenience – a medical emergency occurred during the aircraft’s previous flight of BA992 to BER (see attached log BA992 ACARS). The flight had to be met by paramedics which delayed other customers from leaving the aircraft. This then delayed the boarding of BA993. British Airways will defend this 15-minute delay.
• RS - cabin crew rotation – these 20 minutes are related to the medical emergency as the crew were assisting the passenger.
However, these delays did not cause the late departure of BA993 because the flight was waiting for a slot to be allocated. ATC (Air Traffic Control) capacity restrictions through German airspace meant the flight was being allocated slot delays (see attached log Restriction Code beginning ED, BA993 CFMU).
...
Although the slot delay varied from the initial 13-minute delay given at 10:25 GMT, the 20-minute slot delay given at 12:14 GMT, 11 minutes before the flight was due to depart, would have meant it would not have been airborne until 12:53 GMT. If the flight had then had the season’s average flying time (EET / estimated elapsed time) of 92 minutes and the average taxi-in time of 17 minutes, it would not have arrived on stand until 14:42 GMT. Even using the flight’s own times, of a 90-minute EET and 14-minute taxi-in time, the flight would not have arrived until 14:37 GMT (see attached log BA993 blocktimes).
At 12:43 GMT the slot delay increased to 53 minutes meaning the flight would not have been airborne until 13:46 GMT. The final slot delay gave an airborne time of 13:13 GMT.
The flight had to have arrived on stand at LHR by 14:30 GMT for the Claimant to have the minimum connection time (MCT) they needed to reach flight AA107 in time. The flight would have had to have been airborne by 12:41 GMT.
...
The MCT within a terminal at LHR has been set at 60 minutes and the MCT between terminals is set at 90 minutes. The Claimant’s MCT was therefore 90 minutes.
...
Since the slot delays alone would have resulted in the Claimant missing his connection, British Airways denies the claim for compensation. The slot delays were caused by air traffic management decisions which were the result of capacity restrictions.
There were no reasonable measures that could have been taken by British Airways to avoid the delay to BA993.
...
There were no economically viable options that would have allowed BA993 to operate to time or with delays lower than occurred. Any aircraft would have had the same slot delays.
Having missed AA107 on 24 July 2022, British Airways was unable to offer the Claimant a confirmed booking on an alternative flight. The last British Airways flight to JFK on 24 July had departed at 15:15 GMT. Our Revenue Management team were asked if they could release a seat for the Claimant on 25 July, but they were unable to assist.
A booking for 26 July was held. The Claimant travelled on BA117 on 26 July 2022.
...
I trust we have provided sufficient information for you to be satisfied we have considered our obligations in line with the Regulation correctly.
