South London Bon Viveur

Something here is not adding up, but if they turned up before check in closing time and had their bags accepted (which it seems pretty clear they did) and then promptly headed for immigration then one might hope for BA to look at this benignly- but as CWS said the devil here is in the detail. If there are seats available then I really don't understand why BA would hide behind the embargo on new sales. Surely this is not a actually a new sale- indeed, wasn't the new sale embargo introduced by BA precisely to allow for some slack to deal with exactly this type of situation (even if they have to pay)?

steveholt

This seems like a combination of several things that *should* be controllable (getting to the airport with enough time to reasonably get through immigration, BA being able to rebook onto an otherwise mostly empty flight, etc) which aren't because of the unique times we live in. I have to imagine BA will say their hands are tied. OP, I wonder if they could point to the time at which BA accepted the bags as evidence that they arrived at the airport with enough time to go through immigration? I would guess BA has a record of that, although they may not be willing to share it.

scottishpoet

While the bag drop time would show that the passengers were in the airport it does not show how long they waited till they cleared security, nor how long they then waited before proceeding to passport control.

If LIS is anything like most european airports there will be a vast array of shops, restaurants and bars that can be explored in the schengen area meaning people can leave it too late to get to passport control, especially if it is a busy time for non schengen departures.

There are people who arrive at T5 in plenty of time, drop their bag off, but yet still fail to meet conformance.

scottishpoet

This is why i feel the important information is how many other families missed the flight rather than what time they dropped their bags

orbitmic

I think it is a tricky one. I would typically expect BA to have erred on the side of lenience and allowed transfer onto the next available flight (and connection to JER if on a single ticket).

That said, as others have mentioned, if they haven't, it is less obvious to me specifically how enforceable protection would be. I too would really like to know how many others have missed the flight. If the issue was truly abnormal lines, I would expect quite a few people to be affected as not everyone can use e-gates (not just families, but also people from many countries who would be on the flight as there will be plenty of transfer pax from).

Whilst there is no point in re-writing history, there is in thinking of how similar sour experiences can be avoided by others in the future. Many airports will also call for passengers with urgent boarding to make themselves known and it might be an idea to do so anyway. If one doesn't feel comfortable doing that, if at all possible, it may be a good idea for one of the adults to use the e-gates to be able to get to the gate on time and alert the gate staff that the rest of the party are stuck at immigration and they may be able to help a lot more.

I guess the points I am trying to make are that 1) hiccups between check in and departure are often not the passengers' fault but they are typically not the airline's fault either (in other words, I disagree with those above who compare this situation to IDB because IDB involves the airline being responsible and I do not agree it is likely the case here) so it is best to work on the basis of trying to make it easy for them to help you and 2) the practical reality is that a lot more can be easily done if an airline is made aware of an issue before gates close and the passengers are deemed no show than after.

None of us will know what exactly happened between the time the bag was checked and the time doors closed - maybe it was just slow queue after slow queue meaning that even with the best endeavours the normal timings were not manageable (but again, in that case, you would typically expect others to be affected), or maybe it is that the passengers might have been over-optimistic about some formalities and cut it a little too short to go to immigration (indeed, how many of us have not "cut it too short" at the airport in the past, even without immigration, and suddenly vividly imagined the gate closing on us because we hadn't seen time passing in the lounge or in a shop or on a call, or took a wrong turn, or hadn't imagined we'd get the furthest possible C gate or whatever). Either way, however, I just think that the thing to do in that case is try to find a way to communicate,which is actually a little easier for a larger party than for a single traveller.

At this stage, I am guessing that the best the OP's friends can do is collect all receipts, concisely and precisely explain the situation to customer relations, including taking some responsibility if appropriate (eg. if indeed they just misjudged the queues and could have actually been on time if going straight to the gate, but also be clear if that is precisely what they did) and ask that the airline refund some of those costs and see what happens. My guess is that if they are unhelpful, unless quite a few others were affected, trying to take this the legal route may be challenging (ie the first thing the airline lawyers will check is if anyone else was affected on the day, and if not, they will obviously make that point).

Tafflyer

There is also the situation at LIS that there are no BA staff. I can tell you from experience, that the LIS staff will not care less if half the aircraft is in the immigration line, they are looking towards their next break, lunch or finishing time agreed with their client, the airline. It's usually immigration or security staff patrolling long lines and never the airlines looking to help their own passengers. (BA is not alone in this over-outsourcing of services)

As for IDB, while not directly the airline denying boarding, I agree with that sentiment, passengers being able to transit the airport after adhering to all minimum deadlines published is in my opinion within the responsibility of the airline. So should be the airport ensuring that mounting queues are patrolled to avoid passengers missing flights due to it.

In the past I have regularly missed connecting flights, typically in the USA, due to large immigration queues. Not once has the airline concerned refused to rebook me. Indeed, I have found BA and their partners AA rather good, and very well practised in this. Frankly though, the staff in Lisbon couldn't give a hoot, and not belonging to the airline concerned only feeds that ambivalence. As with all things, this can only change to the consumer's benefit when the consequences are more trouble than doing nothing.

IAN-UK

Lisbon's tricky. Lulled by the wonderland of duty-free, luxe shops, cafes and lounges after security, I'm guessing many passengers are only half-aware of the further layer of inspection required to gain access to the international pier, and exit the EU. And they won't be expecting the build up of queues for the inpection of non-EU documents, particularly when there are banks of flights to Africa, Brasil and the US.

It's maybe difficult for UK passport holders to get used to the more onerous frontier processes post-Brexit. What used to be the quick flash of a passport at the EU desks, is now something more complicated more time consuming.

It's a similar situation at (some) other European airports, but at Lisbon it is exacerbated by the limited number of manned positions for the inspection of non-EU passengers, the high demand for those inspections at peak times, and a lack of incentive for passengers to get themselves across the border early. There's really nothing to gett passengers away from the joys of the Schengen area, to make that early move to the international pier: it has little to attract, entertain or distract them, certainly no lounge.

Clearly BA knows all this. If the airline can't find a way to urge passengers to the frontier in good time, or to otherwise encourage its staff and ground handlers to liaise with the Portuguese authorities to facilitate the process for late arrivals at the frontier, then it should at least treat late gate-arrivals more leniently where space exists on later flights.

The "computer says no" approach to offering seats on the later LHR JER sector seems baffling. I understand the restrictions in place, but surely there's an ability to override the process for just this type of eventuality,

orbitmic

but there are two critical things here:

1) a connection is not an o/d trip. When you book a connecting flight, airlines (single or plural assume a responsibility for the transit experience. Whilst not fool proof it means that an airline would need to demonstrate missing a connection was your fault in such a deliberate or careless way that it would invalidate that protection. By contrast, an airline does not assume responsibility for your departure airport experience at all.

2) long immigration lines in the us or Australia etc typically mean a lot of people will be delayed. This creates a form of evidence that missing flights was unavoidable. As mentioned by many of us, if emigration lines were long enough that many people similarly missed the departure of this flight this will strongly strengthen the case that this was unavoidable. However if the family were the only ones it will similarly suggest that it was not unless there was a specific delay here (eg secondary interview evidenced by border forces etc. When this happens, airlines are typically accommodating but it doesn’t seem to be the case here).

so the situation is certainly different on one front and potentially different (we don’t know) on another and does not suggest airlines are routinely and necessarily responsible to reaccommodate o/w pax who miss boarding just because they dropped a bag before bag checking time.

ps: the lack of ba staff is a red herring imho - the lis situation is the same as it is virtually anywhere in Europe except London with grounds op’s subcontracted and subcontractors perfectly aware of how to reach their ba contact if they wish to

corporate-wage-slave

There was a very interesting case some years back in the Scots Court, which may be partly relevant here, were two easyJet customers were denied boarding and were able to claim as much from the airline (which did not cover itself in glory in this case). This was a case where both delays in check-in and security (and the lack of assistance given in security) all contributed to missing their flights. So this is diffeerent and easyJet was mainly to blame due to poor check-in handling. But the core point was that if the passenger did all they reasonably could to meet the various obligations on them, principally turning up in good time for the flight, then they are entitled to EC261 protection, which as a very minimum would involve a free rebook and potentially IDB compensation. But as ever, the details will matter here.




https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search...0-ff0000d74aa7

Stewie Mac

Dante *and* Pontius Pilate in one summation? Big up to Sheriff Welsh QC

Rpg101

Us passengers also use the e-gates at lis. The issue at LIS is political. A Ukranian citizen was killed at LIS by the border police a few years ago. The government decided to disband the border police and replace it with cops from the city police. Things have not been going smoothly. In addition the french company that runs the airport has been accused of using too much space on duty free shops and not leaving enough space for passport control.

corporate-wage-slave

Yes, but minus a point in that the Sheriff provided a translation to the Dante quote, dumbing down et cetera. The Sheriff took quite a shine to Mr. Caldwell it has to be said.

Tafflyer

And once again CWS comes up with the goods. Big up not just to Sheriff Welsh QC but also to our own CWS for digging it up. I do think this is very relevant to this situation and potentially many others similar: I take IAN-UK's point about the 2-stage PT departure experience for non-Schengen flights which is frankly a PITA but in the past check-in agents have pointed it out to me. We would need the OP to comment on this specific case.

Frequentflyer99

I wonder whether a poor check-in experience / policy could be the cause. Thinking back to AGP pre-pandemic - when thigs were 'normal ' - it was not unusual to queue for 45 mins even for CE check-in. Given that the check-in never opened more than 2 hrs pre-departure, it could often be the case that even arriving 2.5 hrs ahead of the flight, one had not got to security until +/- 1 hr pre-departure. Having then to navigate the current extended security and immigration lines would be very problematic.

The airlines need to revisit their check-in policies and allow earlier check-in at out-stations than pre-pandemic, and assume responsibility for not having done this.

orbitmic

Key points in the motivation of the Scottish judgement include that 1) that the delay was due solely to the queues (ie the Sheriff specifically starts by referring to the fact that the passenger did not stop on the way), and 2) that the airline did not take reasonable steps to facilitate passage through its own check in queue and security. We do not know if those things apply in this case or not, and again, I suspect that if it was the case that noone else missed the departure and the airline could demonstrate it, it may make it harder to make such a case.