Punitive compensation needed
Jul 14, 2022, 5:49 am
#16
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: ORD/MDW
Programs: BA/AA/AS/B6/WN/ UA/HH/MR and more like 'em but most felicitously & importantly MUCCI
Posts: 19,719
That may not qualify as willful deceit but it is surely defiance or rejection of obligations legal and otherwise, which is only possible because of toothless (or criminally over-tolerant) regulators.
Jul 14, 2022, 5:58 am
#17
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,574
I think that a bvtter option than collecting a fine to the coffers of government, that on losing a case, the airline be required to contact all other passengers on the flight to inform them that they are entitled to compensation and the passengers to get 50% extra
Jul 14, 2022, 7:29 am
#19
Join Date: Oct 2017
Programs: Honors Diamond
Posts: 1,638
I doubt one single change will achieve what is necessary.
One thing that government should act on (and we saw it even more starkly in P&O) is the attitude that it may be better to knowingly break the rules and deal with the consequences afterwards than to try to comply with them in the first place.
A general duty on the directors of transport companies to make sure all relevant regulations are followed to the best of their ability, with the sanction of being barred from company directorships for a period of years would I think sharpen minds here.
I think there is clear read across to financial services after the 08-09 crash.
One thing that government should act on (and we saw it even more starkly in P&O) is the attitude that it may be better to knowingly break the rules and deal with the consequences afterwards than to try to comply with them in the first place.
A general duty on the directors of transport companies to make sure all relevant regulations are followed to the best of their ability, with the sanction of being barred from company directorships for a period of years would I think sharpen minds here.
I think there is clear read across to financial services after the 08-09 crash.
Jul 14, 2022, 7:44 am
#21
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: ORD/MDW
Programs: BA/AA/AS/B6/WN/ UA/HH/MR and more like 'em but most felicitously & importantly MUCCI
Posts: 19,719
Attitudes only shift when the price of inertia finally exceeds that of being proactive and responsible. It would be good for all of us if BA thought it stood at that inflection point now.
Jul 14, 2022, 7:46 am
#22
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: London
Programs: BA Silver (for now)
Posts: 1,000
On Tuesday evening I watched a TV programme about travel disruption. Various people were interviewed and one clear message was that the airlines did not meet their legal requirements when flights were delayed and cancelled. This also arises on this forum on an almost daily basis when people seek advice about compensation. BA so often deliberately rebuffs claims and tries to get the individuals to give up. We read so many reports of BA refusing or ignoring claims until legal action occurs, which they don't fight but simply pay up immediately before the actual court considers the case. But most people will probably give up before that point.
I think it is time that compensation became punitive to force airlines to meet their obligations. The EU/UK delay compensation should be doubled if not paid within a week, and doubled again if still outstanding in a fortnight and so on like the grains of rice on a chess board. Refusal to rebook flights or accommodation immediately could be sanctioned by the same system of escalating fines. Consequential losses should be met and again their payment enforced by punitive fines. BA, and others, clearly find it cheaper at the moment to cheat their passengers rather than meet obligations and something needs to be done.
I also wonder if the police could consider arresting airline staff who knowingly lie to passengers about their rights; seems like fraud to me when done with the intent of depriving people of what they are legally due.
I think it is time that compensation became punitive to force airlines to meet their obligations. The EU/UK delay compensation should be doubled if not paid within a week, and doubled again if still outstanding in a fortnight and so on like the grains of rice on a chess board. Refusal to rebook flights or accommodation immediately could be sanctioned by the same system of escalating fines. Consequential losses should be met and again their payment enforced by punitive fines. BA, and others, clearly find it cheaper at the moment to cheat their passengers rather than meet obligations and something needs to be done.
I also wonder if the police could consider arresting airline staff who knowingly lie to passengers about their rights; seems like fraud to me when done with the intent of depriving people of what they are legally due.
Jul 14, 2022, 7:55 am
#23
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NYC, Wash DC
Programs: BA Gold, UA Plat (1mm),Marriott LT Plat, Avis PC, National Exec Elite, Hertz PC
Posts: 394
This is a uniquely Euro/UK issue as US Airlines, in conjunction with their friends in Congress, simply rewrote the rules so they are liable for nothing at all. And they deliver on that promise consistently!
Jul 14, 2022, 8:01 am
#24
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere between 0 and 13,000 metres high
Programs: AF/KL Life Plat, BA GGL+GfL, ALL Plat, Hilton Diam, Marriott Gold, blablablah, etc
Posts: 30,512
as for fines going to government coffers, well, notwithstanding leadership candidates promises, we all know we are in for nasty tax increases before long so that’s an amount they won’t need to get from us!!
Jul 14, 2022, 8:20 am
#25
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,752
Totally agree with everything except this last paragraph. The police have not enough resource, it’s unlikely to be a criminal case anyway, and if it was then you may as well lock up every shop assistant who denies you a refund when it’s due!!
Jul 14, 2022, 8:36 am
#26
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Bridport, Dorset
Programs: Mucci, BA Bronze, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,129
Devils advocaat [sic] here: EU261 is absurd and I benefited from it.
I flew with FlyBe a few years back and the return was cancelled due to a technical issue.
I received a taxi from the airport to the hotel; overnight accommodation; a three course dinner; breakfast; a taxi to the airport the next morning and was then rebooked onto an easyJet flight.
I then received a £200 credit voucher from Flybe.
The cost of my flight: £19.99.
If it had been a train journey I would be entitled to my money back and travel arrangements home.
I totally agree that compensation should be paid when things go wrong but it seems so heavily weighted - and yet things still go wrong. (Because airlines really do, operationally, want to do the right thing; even if head office is batting away claims left right and centre)
I'm still miffed that BA refuse to accept they operated flights on my route after my flight was cancelled in August 2020 (the day before). The say the route was suspended due to COVID but I know it wasn't.
I flew with FlyBe a few years back and the return was cancelled due to a technical issue.
I received a taxi from the airport to the hotel; overnight accommodation; a three course dinner; breakfast; a taxi to the airport the next morning and was then rebooked onto an easyJet flight.
I then received a £200 credit voucher from Flybe.
The cost of my flight: £19.99.
If it had been a train journey I would be entitled to my money back and travel arrangements home.
I totally agree that compensation should be paid when things go wrong but it seems so heavily weighted - and yet things still go wrong. (Because airlines really do, operationally, want to do the right thing; even if head office is batting away claims left right and centre)
I'm still miffed that BA refuse to accept they operated flights on my route after my flight was cancelled in August 2020 (the day before). The say the route was suspended due to COVID but I know it wasn't.
Last edited by Sealink; Jul 14, 2022 at 8:43 am
Jul 14, 2022, 8:38 am
#27
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Effectively grounded
Programs: BA GGL for a little while longer
Posts: 844
I think this is somewhat analagous to BA's yellow tag problem - not necessarily the wrong answer, just implemented the wrong way round!
For tags, just change the rule so that only bags with a yellow tag are allowed in the overheads. No tag ? Yanked and gate-checked, no exceptions (unless the owner volunteers to put it under the seat in front of them).
For delays and cancellations, a data feed at the end of every day identifies which flights were x hours late or cancelled. The next working day, automatic compensation amounts go out to every ticketholder on every one of those flights. For the airline to proactively block this for "extraordinary circumstances" and debate these with the regulator quarterly or so... Even the CAA should be able to cope with a quarterly review
Pax to retain the right to pursue via CEDR and/or MCOL where they believed compensation has been unlawfully denied.
I will gather my thoughts and post later on Duty of Care
For tags, just change the rule so that only bags with a yellow tag are allowed in the overheads. No tag ? Yanked and gate-checked, no exceptions (unless the owner volunteers to put it under the seat in front of them).
For delays and cancellations, a data feed at the end of every day identifies which flights were x hours late or cancelled. The next working day, automatic compensation amounts go out to every ticketholder on every one of those flights. For the airline to proactively block this for "extraordinary circumstances" and debate these with the regulator quarterly or so... Even the CAA should be able to cope with a quarterly review
Pax to retain the right to pursue via CEDR and/or MCOL where they believed compensation has been unlawfully denied.
I will gather my thoughts and post later on Duty of Care
Jul 14, 2022, 9:28 am
#28
Join Date: Mar 2005
Programs: IHG Diamond Ambassador, Accor Plat, M&M FTL, BA Blue, QR Gold
Posts: 3,720
Jul 14, 2022, 9:50 am
#29
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA GfL, Marriott PlatfL/Ambassador, TP Gold, IHG Spire
Posts: 1,656
Let's be under no illusion that airlines are not a charity. If the costs increase the money has to come from fares.
Having said that, I agree that it is time that the law is changed to enforce airlines to compensate passengers when compensation is due.
Having said that, I agree that it is time that the law is changed to enforce airlines to compensate passengers when compensation is due.
Jul 14, 2022, 10:43 am
#30
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spitalfields, London
Programs: BA Gold, KFC 'The Colonel's Club' Palladium tier, Mucci des Visions Célestes du Nord-Pas-de-Calais
Posts: 2,317
I think the rancour in 261 lies in the many grey areas and judgments it gives rise to.
If compensation - at whatever level - was due irrespective of the cause (like trains) there would be no need for airlines to publish lists of eligible flights as it would be unambiguous.
If the airlines want to recover costs from suppliers behind the scenes, so be it, but it would save a lot of pain for the customer and a lot of staff time for the airlines.
If compensation - at whatever level - was due irrespective of the cause (like trains) there would be no need for airlines to publish lists of eligible flights as it would be unambiguous.
If the airlines want to recover costs from suppliers behind the scenes, so be it, but it would save a lot of pain for the customer and a lot of staff time for the airlines.