ademanuele

I am waiting for the MAN-LHR shuttle, a flight that is invariably delayed and is only in the air for around 30 minutes. BA are scheduling this flight for 1 hour 10 minutes. Is this just a cynical approach by airlines to avoid compensation for delays and if so why has the regulator not acted? I appreciate that some flexibility is necessary, but for a route like MAN-LHR it gives airlines the opportunity to allow significant delays (with no consequences) and perhaps deprioritise behind other flights. On this particular route BA need a stick to improve performance…

Oaxaca

Scheduled flight times are “gate to gate” not “wheels up to wheels down”, so it takes into account taxiing at both ends and perhaps some padding for any time in the stack on approach to LHR. Some airlines pad more than others (FR is an example), but this is totally normal.

KARFA

What you are seeing on a timetable is the block time, not the flight time.

Flight time for MAN is usually 30-35 minutes. It is quite normal to allow say 15-20 minutes from push back to takeoff, and say 10 minutes from landing to getting on to a stand. And they may want to add in 5-10 minutes for a flight at a busier time of day to allow for some holding before the approach. As far as I remember MAN has always been timetabled at somewhere between 1 hour and 1 hour 10 minutes depending on specific flight so I don't see any cynical approach here. Timetabling that route for anything less than an hour would be quite silly on BA's part.

ademanuele

Appreciate the comments, my frustration stems from the punctuality (rather lack of) of this flight and the number of times we get bussed to/from T5 at Heathrow…

Jon MilnerMatthews

This is an interesting take; the alternative way of putting it would be "Why are BA being honest about how long they actually think the journey will take?" Time of arrival is when they open the aircraft doors, if BA say the flight will arrive at 1300 hrs (for example), and they open the aircraft doors at 1300 hrs, does it really matter that they closed the aircraft doors (time of departure) 10 minutes, 20 minutes, even 30 minutes later than they said they would? (Granted, closing the doors 30 minutes late and still making an on-time arrival would be fairly unlikely on a short hop, but not necessarily impossible). Trains in the UK are notorious for almost always running late, one of the main reasons for that is that there is not enough time built into the timetables for boarding and alighting at stations in busy periods, I would rather the timetables were honest and a train sat at a platform for a couple of extra minutes each time than they said I would arrive at my destination 30 minutes earlier than I actually do and I wouldn't see it as an attempt to avoid Delay Repay compensation, just as a TOC actually being honest about when I would likely get to my destination such that I can choose the most appropriate train to take.

Krisz

You would see this consistent 30-40 min padding time for all flights. Long haul a bit different as it’s more effected by high wind speeds. So if BA would start flying from LHR-LGW the published block time would around 45-50 min. Not because BA wants to avoid from anything but push back and taxi time would be probably 30 min for both end plus some hold time.
delay compensation starts from around 3 hours so an hour delay won’t really make any difference. It is quite rare but happens sometimes that extra 5-10 min “missing” to claim.
BA also have to take into account connection times as most MAN passengers are connecting. So even if your MAN shuttle take off about one hour delayed it would probably be 30-40 min delayed by arrivals so most people even on tight connections would make it.

Krisz

well I do this shuttle almost on a weekly bases so understand the frustration.
I just add an hour to the schedule as like yesterday almost all MAN was delayed.

Oxon Flyer

30 minutes is, quite literally, only possible on a perfect day with the wind behind.

Just picking a MAN-LHR service at random, say BA1387, and working backwards from today, the in-air times have been 40, 43, 41, 35, 29, 36, 34, 43, 37, 37, 32, 40, 36, 38, 38, 36, 35, 32, 35, 38, 38, 42, 48, 38, 42, 40 mins.

This clearly shows that the planning allowance should be at least 38 - 40 minutes. Once you add on pushback, taxi at each end and a short line-up hold, then 1h10m seems an entirely sensible assumption for the normal gate-to-gate time. Certainly not a significant exaggeration.

Oxon Flyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon MilnerMatthews

Trains in the UK are notorious for almost always running late

BTW, dare I suggest this is a "significant exaggeration" too ?

ademanuele

I’m on the shuttle two to three times a month and invariably late, just arrived at LHR 🤷🏻‍♂️

South London Bon Viveur

All airlines pad out like this- block time is always longer than time in the air. London to Amsterdam block time on all carriers is way more than the 45-50 minutes that you actually spend in the air. I think BA's LCY departures are around 1hr 5 mins, whereas the LHR departures are usually blocked at 1hr 20 or even more, which is almost doubling the actual time in the air. In a sense it's annoying, but it is also fair enough. Taking Amsterdam as an example, on an LHR departure you can easily cumulatively spend 40 minutes taxiing, especially if you arrive at the Polder runway in Amsterdam.

beachmouse

Very short haul is also first to get hold at origin orders from regional ATC during times when the air space at larger airports is very congested. Safer and less expensive (fuel burn costs) to have a 10-15 minute departure hold on the ground than an in air holding pattern.

Have that happened frequently enough and it gets baked into the block time.

T8191

JER>LHR/LGW is the same. Usually published as 1h/1h:05 and results in c. 35-40m in the air.

Ldnn1

So block time here was pretty much spot on

Krisz

Well you are lucky today. The MAN-LHR 12:30 arrived just 6 min delay. But it’s gate 507. Which means….
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leaving the back door. Yay!
to a bus to take us in a 1 min ride. :d

so you are lucky!!!