Assigned Middle Seat in Club Europe

Old Mar 31, 2022, 6:38 am
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by LCY8737
……………………… This is because of BA's commercial decision not to invest in redundant IT systems and sufficient staffing levels. They caused this, they should take ownership, and 10k Avios is not good enough.

That’s always assuming BA do actually pay it ! Judging from a previous lengthy thread prompted by the last spell of middle seat ‘unblocking’ (which was way back in …. er …. February), the response to passenger claims / complaints has a familiar inconsistency : where one passenger was indeed handed 10K avios, another received nothing more than a #sorrynotsorry email.

My longstanding perception of ET as far better vfm than CE is only strengthened by these happenings. I had toyed briefly with the option of upgrading some of my own upcoming s/h trips ; but the prospect of further middle seat fiascos - coupled with a potentially tedious fight for some form of acceptable compensation - just puts another tick in the not worth it column.

On a more fundamental note, I firmly believe that passengers would be FAR more accepting of a (sometimes last-minute) removal of the single biggest benefit of the CE cabin if BA were to adopt a truly proactive and uniform approach. By which I mean, on those occasions where there is a genuine, justifiable need for this sort of hard product ‘downgrade’, a clear communication covering appropriate guaranteed compensation levels should be issued promptly.

There is no question that BA are far from alone in making things difficult for customers where matters of compensation are concerned. Everyone has experience of dealing with countless consumer businesses which create various obstacles and hurdles for those seeking legitimate redress : a strategy followed by pretty much all corporates which choose to place greater value and priority on bottom-line profitability & shareholder return than on customer service and long-term loyalty. Perhaps one difference which sets BA apart is their senior management’s oft-repeated aspiration to restore BA to premium status when - for the most part - decisions and culture adopted by Willie Walsh and his successors point very much in the opposite direction.
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 6:56 am
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by subject2load
On a more fundamental note, I firmly believe that passengers would be FAR more accepting of a (sometimes last-minute) removal of the single biggest benefit of the CE cabin if BA were to adopt a truly proactive and uniform approach. By which I mean, on those occasions where there is a genuine, justifiable need for this sort of hard product ‘downgrade’, a clear communication covering appropriate guaranteed compensation levels should be issued promptly.
I would argue this is a downgrade and would request the 75% compensation as per EC261. That ready meal really is not cutting it. MCOL and done.

And if BA really let this go in front of a judge then I'd gladly risk the Ł60 to see their lawyer explain to a judge why this was not a downgrade. I'd probably pay more than Ł60 for that pleasure.
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 7:03 am
  #33  
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Originally Posted by LCY8737
I would argue this is a downgrade and would request the 75% compensation as per EC261. That ready meal really is not cutting it. MCOL and done.

And if BA really let this go in front of a judge then I'd gladly risk the Ł60 to see their lawyer explain to a judge why this was not a downgrade. I'd probably pay more than Ł60 for that pleasure.
well it is certainly a loss of one element of the CE service, but it is not a downgrade to Y considering that all the other elements which remain unaffected.

fwiw, i have made my view known on this last time it happened and said BA should be pro-actively giving some compensation to those who booked CE and no longer have a unsold middle seat - maybe a Ł50 evoucher for most 1-2 hr flights, perhaps more for a ATH etc.
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 7:36 am
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by KARFA
well it is certainly a loss of one element of the CE service, but it is not a downgrade to Y considering that all the other elements which remain unaffected.

fwiw, i have made my view known on this last time it happened and said BA should be pro-actively giving some compensation to those who booked CE and no longer have a unsold middle seat - maybe a Ł50 evoucher for most 1-2 hr flights, perhaps more for a ATH etc.
My legal experience is somewhat more limited than yours (grand total of one court appearance). In that experience the judge gave me an introduction to what the civil procedure rules actually mean, then told Swiss that when you cancel flights you have to refund people, irrespective of a non-lawyer not understanding the details of the civil procedure rules. I did not get everything I asked for, but I did get my refund.

It may be that I was exceedingly lucky with the judge in my case, but I found the "lets focus on the big picture" approach very positive and I would hope that most judges are like that. And by big picture - in business class I mean space.
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 7:51 am
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by LCY8737
My legal experience is somewhat more limited than yours (grand total of one court appearance). In that experience the judge gave me an introduction to what the civil procedure rules actually mean, then told Swiss that when you cancel flights you have to refund people, irrespective of a non-lawyer not understanding the details of the civil procedure rules. I did not get everything I asked for, but I did get my refund.

It may be that I was exceedingly lucky with the judge in my case, but I found the "lets focus on the big picture" approach very positive and I would hope that most judges are like that. And by big picture - in business class I mean space.
I doubt anyone debates the service has been downgraded

Any debate would be has it been downgraded to Y

Other service elements remain, TP, Avios, meal, lounge access, baggage allowance.

I appreciate not everyone avails of all of these while everyone (well except for one well known lawyer) appreciate the benefit of the middle seat being available

So I believe some level of compensation should be paid, I would question if it should be the 75% to Y

This should be on top of any EU261 comp for people who have had flights cancelled

Yes if a flight is cancelled someone should be entitled to a refund if they choose not to fly on an alternate flight
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 7:57 am
  #36  
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Originally Posted by LCY8737
My legal experience is somewhat more limited than yours (grand total of one court appearance). In that experience the judge gave me an introduction to what the civil procedure rules actually mean, then told Swiss that when you cancel flights you have to refund people, irrespective of a non-lawyer not understanding the details of the civil procedure rules. I did not get everything I asked for, but I did get my refund.

It may be that I was exceedingly lucky with the judge in my case, but I found the "lets focus on the big picture" approach very positive and I would hope that most judges are like that. And by big picture - in business class I mean space.
yes when your flight is cancelled you are due a full refund. I am not sure anyone would suggest there was any ambiguity on that point - although like you I did have problems with another European airline early in the pandemic who claimed otherwise.
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 9:37 am
  #37  
 
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Originally Posted by Unimatrix One
I've never understood the European model. Is there any other region of the world where the airlines do this? Even here in Japan, where domestic flights are shorter than many European routes, ANA's premium cabin has wide seats with 50 inches of pitch. (Better even than US domestic F, which is also better than European business class.)
Business fares in Europe are generally cheaper though?
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 10:14 am
  #38  
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Originally Posted by labdoctor
Business fares in Europe are generally cheaper though?
Dream on!
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 10:28 am
  #39  
 
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Originally Posted by LCY8737
Reasonably sure LH/LX/TP don't do this. No clue about other airlines.

What really triggers me with BA is the "to help as many people as possible" statement, which basically says you're a horrible person if you disagree with our strategy. No. This is because of BA's commercial decision not to invest in redundant IT systems and sufficient staffing levels. They caused this, they should take ownership, and 10k Avios is not good enough.
they should ask me if i'm ok with someone sitting in the middle seat and let me decide if i want to be the boogey man or not (spoiler alert: yes i do)

but also i know there are some routes like LHR-BCN that my friend was stuck 3-abreast on this morning where there are no other alternative non-stops from LHR this morning, but on other routes is it not also just another money saving exercise rather than rebooking pax on other airlines where available?
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 10:42 am
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Originally Posted by KARFA
well it is certainly a loss of one element of the CE service, but it is not a downgrade to Y considering that all the other elements which remain unaffected.
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The fact that BA provided part of the service is not, IMHO, relevant if LCY8737 argues that the only and solely reason they booked J was because of the empty middle seat and that they would gladly have forfeited all the other aspects of the service.

Before anyone says that BA doesn't promise an empty middle: they do. They say in their marketing blurb that all seats in CE are aisle or window, which implies an empty middle.

I used this argument against AF (they didn't provide me with a meal on a LHR-CDG) and got a Ł600 refund (difference between J and Y). Apparently most people in this forum would have said I was owed Ł3 for the ready meal.
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 11:06 am
  #41  
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Originally Posted by mario
....and that they would gladly have forfeited all the other aspects of the service....
I am sure a downgrade to euro traveller is available upon request if that is the sole claimed reason for booking club - can't see too many people advancing such an argument doing that for some reason
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 11:26 am
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by KARFA
I am sure a downgrade to euro traveller is available upon request if that is the sole claimed reason for booking club - can't see too many people advancing such an argument doing that for some reason
​​​​​
That's exactly what I did on a flight in February from LIS to LHR where BA assigned me a middle seat in the CE cabin. The staff at the gate processed my downgrade and blocked the middle seat in ET, of which there were many.

I ended up not flying BA as the aircraft went tech and rebooked myself on TP.
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 11:26 am
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Originally Posted by KARFA
I am sure a downgrade to euro traveller is available upon request if that is the sole claimed reason for booking club - can't see too many people advancing such an argument doing that for some reason
Anyone claiming a 75% discount as what they flew was economy should get it, provided they accept the ET awarded TP ??
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Old Mar 31, 2022, 11:31 am
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Originally Posted by Unimatrix One
I've never understood the European model. Is there any other region of the world where the airlines do this? Even here in Japan, where domestic flights are shorter than many European routes, ANA's premium cabin has wide seats with 50 inches of pitch. (Better even than US domestic F, which is also better than European business class.)
US carriers used to do this in the 70's before going to the big recliners. They did this even on wide body aircrafts. I don't think it was ever sold as first class or business. Just a special section upfront for full fare coach passengers.

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Old Mar 31, 2022, 2:12 pm
  #45  
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Originally Posted by 1Aturnleft
The reason it can STILL be called Club Europe is because this has been the Business Class model within Europe for 30+ years now. Only in Europe nobody kicks up a fuss that the seat isn't substantially more opulent or offering significantly more legroom than Economy to a degree that the airlines are forced to reconsider the model. People are still stumping up the cash fares after all this time so something about it is clearly working.
Interesting take given how Europeans go apoplectic over what's marketed as First Class in the U.S.

Originally Posted by KARFA
well it is certainly a loss of one element of the CE service, but it is not a downgrade to Y considering that all the other elements which remain unaffected.
This suggests that the airline could move your seat from long-haul business to coach but still provide you a business class meal and lounge access and free checked bag and weasel their way out of the EC261 downgrade compensation. I hate the term, but it is a slippery slope here. IMHO, the seating/personal space is the ONLY thing that should be factored into defining a downgrade. I do think someone should file for a 75% refund, particularly an elite who has a free bag, priority security/boarding, and lounge access already and thus the only benefits of J are space and a meal, and the space was taken away. I think it's a pretty good case...
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