Assigned Middle Seat in Club Europe
#31
Join Date: Sep 2013
Programs: BAEC Gold, EK Skywards (enhanced Blue !), Oman Air Sindbad Gold
Posts: 6,383
That’s always assuming BA do actually pay it ! Judging from a previous lengthy thread prompted by the last spell of middle seat ‘unblocking’ (which was way back in …. er …. February), the response to passenger claims / complaints has a familiar inconsistency : where one passenger was indeed handed 10K avios, another received nothing more than a #sorrynotsorry email.
My longstanding perception of ET as far better vfm than CE is only strengthened by these happenings. I had toyed briefly with the option of upgrading some of my own upcoming s/h trips ; but the prospect of further middle seat fiascos - coupled with a potentially tedious fight for some form of acceptable compensation - just puts another tick in the not worth it column.
On a more fundamental note, I firmly believe that passengers would be FAR more accepting of a (sometimes last-minute) removal of the single biggest benefit of the CE cabin if BA were to adopt a truly proactive and uniform approach. By which I mean, on those occasions where there is a genuine, justifiable need for this sort of hard product ‘downgrade’, a clear communication covering appropriate guaranteed compensation levels should be issued promptly.
There is no question that BA are far from alone in making things difficult for customers where matters of compensation are concerned. Everyone has experience of dealing with countless consumer businesses which create various obstacles and hurdles for those seeking legitimate redress : a strategy followed by pretty much all corporates which choose to place greater value and priority on bottom-line profitability & shareholder return than on customer service and long-term loyalty. Perhaps one difference which sets BA apart is their senior management’s oft-repeated aspiration to restore BA to premium status when - for the most part - decisions and culture adopted by Willie Walsh and his successors point very much in the opposite direction.
#32
Join Date: Nov 2004
Programs: BA GGL, LH FTL
Posts: 3,576
On a more fundamental note, I firmly believe that passengers would be FAR more accepting of a (sometimes last-minute) removal of the single biggest benefit of the CE cabin if BA were to adopt a truly proactive and uniform approach. By which I mean, on those occasions where there is a genuine, justifiable need for this sort of hard product ‘downgrade’, a clear communication covering appropriate guaranteed compensation levels should be issued promptly.
And if BA really let this go in front of a judge then I'd gladly risk the Ł60 to see their lawyer explain to a judge why this was not a downgrade. I'd probably pay more than Ł60 for that pleasure.
#33
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 42,708
I would argue this is a downgrade and would request the 75% compensation as per EC261. That ready meal really is not cutting it. MCOL and done.
And if BA really let this go in front of a judge then I'd gladly risk the Ł60 to see their lawyer explain to a judge why this was not a downgrade. I'd probably pay more than Ł60 for that pleasure.
And if BA really let this go in front of a judge then I'd gladly risk the Ł60 to see their lawyer explain to a judge why this was not a downgrade. I'd probably pay more than Ł60 for that pleasure.
fwiw, i have made my view known on this last time it happened and said BA should be pro-actively giving some compensation to those who booked CE and no longer have a unsold middle seat - maybe a Ł50 evoucher for most 1-2 hr flights, perhaps more for a ATH etc.
#34
Join Date: Nov 2004
Programs: BA GGL, LH FTL
Posts: 3,576
well it is certainly a loss of one element of the CE service, but it is not a downgrade to Y considering that all the other elements which remain unaffected.
fwiw, i have made my view known on this last time it happened and said BA should be pro-actively giving some compensation to those who booked CE and no longer have a unsold middle seat - maybe a Ł50 evoucher for most 1-2 hr flights, perhaps more for a ATH etc.
fwiw, i have made my view known on this last time it happened and said BA should be pro-actively giving some compensation to those who booked CE and no longer have a unsold middle seat - maybe a Ł50 evoucher for most 1-2 hr flights, perhaps more for a ATH etc.
It may be that I was exceedingly lucky with the judge in my case, but I found the "lets focus on the big picture" approach very positive and I would hope that most judges are like that. And by big picture - in business class I mean space.
#35
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Krakow
Programs: BAEC Silver, Miles and More(FTL), IHG(Platinum), Accor, HHonors(Diamond), SPG, Hertz Five Star
Posts: 5,791
My legal experience is somewhat more limited than yours (grand total of one court appearance). In that experience the judge gave me an introduction to what the civil procedure rules actually mean, then told Swiss that when you cancel flights you have to refund people, irrespective of a non-lawyer not understanding the details of the civil procedure rules. I did not get everything I asked for, but I did get my refund.
It may be that I was exceedingly lucky with the judge in my case, but I found the "lets focus on the big picture" approach very positive and I would hope that most judges are like that. And by big picture - in business class I mean space.
It may be that I was exceedingly lucky with the judge in my case, but I found the "lets focus on the big picture" approach very positive and I would hope that most judges are like that. And by big picture - in business class I mean space.
Any debate would be has it been downgraded to Y
Other service elements remain, TP, Avios, meal, lounge access, baggage allowance.
I appreciate not everyone avails of all of these while everyone (well except for one well known lawyer) appreciate the benefit of the middle seat being available
So I believe some level of compensation should be paid, I would question if it should be the 75% to Y
This should be on top of any EU261 comp for people who have had flights cancelled
Yes if a flight is cancelled someone should be entitled to a refund if they choose not to fly on an alternate flight
#36
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 42,708
My legal experience is somewhat more limited than yours (grand total of one court appearance). In that experience the judge gave me an introduction to what the civil procedure rules actually mean, then told Swiss that when you cancel flights you have to refund people, irrespective of a non-lawyer not understanding the details of the civil procedure rules. I did not get everything I asked for, but I did get my refund.
It may be that I was exceedingly lucky with the judge in my case, but I found the "lets focus on the big picture" approach very positive and I would hope that most judges are like that. And by big picture - in business class I mean space.
It may be that I was exceedingly lucky with the judge in my case, but I found the "lets focus on the big picture" approach very positive and I would hope that most judges are like that. And by big picture - in business class I mean space.
#37
Join Date: Feb 2018
Programs: BA Silver, Hilton Gold, Accor Silver
Posts: 255
I've never understood the European model. Is there any other region of the world where the airlines do this? Even here in Japan, where domestic flights are shorter than many European routes, ANA's premium cabin has wide seats with 50 inches of pitch. (Better even than US domestic F, which is also better than European business class.)
#39
Join Date: Oct 2005
Programs: BA GGL & GfL, AA LTP, Marriott (sigh) Ambassador, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 3,203
Reasonably sure LH/LX/TP don't do this. No clue about other airlines.
What really triggers me with BA is the "to help as many people as possible" statement, which basically says you're a horrible person if you disagree with our strategy. No. This is because of BA's commercial decision not to invest in redundant IT systems and sufficient staffing levels. They caused this, they should take ownership, and 10k Avios is not good enough.
What really triggers me with BA is the "to help as many people as possible" statement, which basically says you're a horrible person if you disagree with our strategy. No. This is because of BA's commercial decision not to invest in redundant IT systems and sufficient staffing levels. They caused this, they should take ownership, and 10k Avios is not good enough.
but also i know there are some routes like LHR-BCN that my friend was stuck 3-abreast on this morning where there are no other alternative non-stops from LHR this morning, but on other routes is it not also just another money saving exercise rather than rebooking pax on other airlines where available?
#40
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA GfL, Marriott PlatfL/Ambassador, TP Gold, IHG Spire
Posts: 1,654
Before anyone says that BA doesn't promise an empty middle: they do. They say in their marketing blurb that all seats in CE are aisle or window, which implies an empty middle.
I used this argument against AF (they didn't provide me with a meal on a LHR-CDG) and got a Ł600 refund (difference between J and Y). Apparently most people in this forum would have said I was owed Ł3 for the ready meal.
#41
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
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I am sure a downgrade to euro traveller is available upon request if that is the sole claimed reason for booking club - can't see too many people advancing such an argument doing that for some reason
#42
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA GfL, Marriott PlatfL/Ambassador, TP Gold, IHG Spire
Posts: 1,654
That's exactly what I did on a flight in February from LIS to LHR where BA assigned me a middle seat in the CE cabin. The staff at the gate processed my downgrade and blocked the middle seat in ET, of which there were many.
I ended up not flying BA as the aircraft went tech and rebooked myself on TP.
#43
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Krakow
Programs: BAEC Silver, Miles and More(FTL), IHG(Platinum), Accor, HHonors(Diamond), SPG, Hertz Five Star
Posts: 5,791
Anyone claiming a 75% discount as what they flew was economy should get it, provided they accept the ET awarded TP ??
#44
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Denver, Colorado
Programs: IHG Spire, Hilton Honors Gold, Marriott Titanium, Mileage Plus Gold
Posts: 1,736
I've never understood the European model. Is there any other region of the world where the airlines do this? Even here in Japan, where domestic flights are shorter than many European routes, ANA's premium cabin has wide seats with 50 inches of pitch. (Better even than US domestic F, which is also better than European business class.)
#45
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,191
The reason it can STILL be called Club Europe is because this has been the Business Class model within Europe for 30+ years now. Only in Europe nobody kicks up a fuss that the seat isn't substantially more opulent or offering significantly more legroom than Economy to a degree that the airlines are forced to reconsider the model. People are still stumping up the cash fares after all this time so something about it is clearly working.
This suggests that the airline could move your seat from long-haul business to coach but still provide you a business class meal and lounge access and free checked bag and weasel their way out of the EC261 downgrade compensation. I hate the term, but it is a slippery slope here. IMHO, the seating/personal space is the ONLY thing that should be factored into defining a downgrade. I do think someone should file for a 75% refund, particularly an elite who has a free bag, priority security/boarding, and lounge access already and thus the only benefits of J are space and a meal, and the space was taken away. I think it's a pretty good case...