Wrongly Denied Boarding to Spain at LHR
Jun 11, 2021, 3:01 pm
#46
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My father lives in a senior community in the same state as us (not Florida), and was vaccinated by a pharmacy that came to the community and administered two doses of the Moderna vaccine. He was registered in VAMS (we had tried to get him earlier appointments than the community drive), but his VAMS record was not updated. They did fill out a CDC card for him, but there is no record of this in VAMS.
From talking to friends in my local area ... those who went to pharmacies for vaccination got the card but were never registered with VAMS.
.
And then the person who generated the Spousal Unit's CDC Card put his name down as 'Ed' rather than 'Edward' so it doesn't match his full name on his passport or other government id, which is something else to get fixed when we hopefully get a decent app to handle international travel for the next couple of years.
Jun 11, 2021, 3:02 pm
#47
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Apart from the fact that, um, it changed its mind halfway through the passenger's journey (as OP would have been approved for travel to final destination at ORD), let the passenger board a later flight after realising the error, and then the passenger entering Spain with no issues at all?
Jun 11, 2021, 4:53 pm
#48
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While airline agents routinely rely upon TIMATIC, at times the airline reps misinterpret TIMATIC, use TIMATIC improperly, or TIMATIC is out of date/incorrect in part. I’ve seen TIMATIC out of date repeatedly this spring, including both with regard to Iceland earlier in the spring and with regard to Denmark just a handful of days ago. I have also seen airline agents and border control needing to be brought up to speed about the latest developments with regard to countries opening up to vaccinated Americans and others vaccinated in the US.
Even for very experienced travelers who are on top of their game, the need to stay on top of the latest information, get familiar with TIMATIC info and double checking with the embassies/foreign ministries and border control authorities is currently in a league of its own. This may mean bringing more stuff to show to agents than usual.
The airline agents struggle to keep up with the changing game more so as TIMATIC is also a bit too slow to keep up; and this has some agents even more wary than usual while trying to understand TIMATIC or whatever else is relevant to the trip. In this environment, there are some agents who make rather different set and frequency of misinterpretations than may have taken place pre-pandemic.
Even for very experienced travelers who are on top of their game, the need to stay on top of the latest information, get familiar with TIMATIC info and double checking with the embassies/foreign ministries and border control authorities is currently in a league of its own. This may mean bringing more stuff to show to agents than usual.
The airline agents struggle to keep up with the changing game more so as TIMATIC is also a bit too slow to keep up; and this has some agents even more wary than usual while trying to understand TIMATIC or whatever else is relevant to the trip. In this environment, there are some agents who make rather different set and frequency of misinterpretations than may have taken place pre-pandemic.
Jun 11, 2021, 6:25 pm
#49
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Practically speaking, it makes no sense for Spain to open to vaccinated Americans and then say "but we don't accept the CDC certificate" because that's what 99% of Americans will have as proof of vaccination.
That said, I agree that in these times, it makes sense to print out the requirements of any country you're going to and print anything supporting that your documents meet the criteria.
Also, when I got my vaccine at Walgreens, I had them sign the vaccination card and also stamp my yellow international vaccination certificate card.
The CDC card just LOOKS crappy and non-official, with the pharmacy staff just signing their names-- no stamps, no stickers, nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if officials in Africa and Asia rejected them. I'm surprised it happened at Heathrow.
That said, I agree that in these times, it makes sense to print out the requirements of any country you're going to and print anything supporting that your documents meet the criteria.
Also, when I got my vaccine at Walgreens, I had them sign the vaccination card and also stamp my yellow international vaccination certificate card.
The CDC card just LOOKS crappy and non-official, with the pharmacy staff just signing their names-- no stamps, no stickers, nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if officials in Africa and Asia rejected them. I'm surprised it happened at Heathrow.
Jun 11, 2021, 10:26 pm
#50
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Not really ...
Not all Americans who received vaccinations have their vaccinations recorded in the VAMS system.
There are a number of reasons for this. But first and foremost, the initial launch of VAMS was a mess, and many (if not most) vaccination providers decided to schedule appointments outside of the VAMS system. Some providers (especially hospitals) did update VAMS with vaccination records ... but my impression is that many providers did not.
I made a point of having my family register for vaccination through VAMS, because I hoped this would be a better path if a "proof of vaccination" "certificate" was ever required.
VAMS does have a record of vaccination for myself, wife and daughter.
My son is going to university in Florida. We registered him through VAMS and scheduled his first appointment at a Florida hospital. He received both Pfizer doses at that hospital, each with a piece of paper documenting the batch number, and was given a blank CDC card. By Florida law, he was told they could not record the details on the CDC card, but suggested that he may want to record these details on the CDC card for his records. The hospital did not update his VAMS account with vaccination details.
My father lives in a senior community in the same state as us (not Florida), and was vaccinated by a pharmacy that came to the community and administered two doses of the Moderna vaccine. He was registered in VAMS (we had tried to get him earlier appointments than the community drive), but his VAMS record was not updated. They did fill out a CDC card for him, but there is no record of this in VAMS.
From talking to friends in my local area ... those who went to pharmacies for vaccination got the card but were never registered with VAMS.
I printed off my vaccination certificate from VAMS several months ago ... and I would argue that it is even easier to forge than the CDC card, as it is simply a typewritten record of the same details that were either hand-written or applied as a sticker to the CDC card. All it does is add a VAMS ID number ... which I seriously doubt could be verified by any airline or foreign border agent.
Out of curiosity, I logged into VAMS just now and I see that the format of the certificate issued by VAMS has been updated to look more professional. It has a VAMS header graphic, and is titled "Certificate of COVID-19 Vaccination". But nowhere does it reference CDC, or even our country name. On the whole, this seems even less official than the CDC card...apart from the impossible to verify VAMS ID number.
It saddens me that there are people who would rather forge a form than act responsibly, but I think that CDC card is official as it can get for US vaccinations.
Not all Americans who received vaccinations have their vaccinations recorded in the VAMS system.
There are a number of reasons for this. But first and foremost, the initial launch of VAMS was a mess, and many (if not most) vaccination providers decided to schedule appointments outside of the VAMS system. Some providers (especially hospitals) did update VAMS with vaccination records ... but my impression is that many providers did not.
I made a point of having my family register for vaccination through VAMS, because I hoped this would be a better path if a "proof of vaccination" "certificate" was ever required.
VAMS does have a record of vaccination for myself, wife and daughter.
My son is going to university in Florida. We registered him through VAMS and scheduled his first appointment at a Florida hospital. He received both Pfizer doses at that hospital, each with a piece of paper documenting the batch number, and was given a blank CDC card. By Florida law, he was told they could not record the details on the CDC card, but suggested that he may want to record these details on the CDC card for his records. The hospital did not update his VAMS account with vaccination details.
My father lives in a senior community in the same state as us (not Florida), and was vaccinated by a pharmacy that came to the community and administered two doses of the Moderna vaccine. He was registered in VAMS (we had tried to get him earlier appointments than the community drive), but his VAMS record was not updated. They did fill out a CDC card for him, but there is no record of this in VAMS.
From talking to friends in my local area ... those who went to pharmacies for vaccination got the card but were never registered with VAMS.
I printed off my vaccination certificate from VAMS several months ago ... and I would argue that it is even easier to forge than the CDC card, as it is simply a typewritten record of the same details that were either hand-written or applied as a sticker to the CDC card. All it does is add a VAMS ID number ... which I seriously doubt could be verified by any airline or foreign border agent.
Out of curiosity, I logged into VAMS just now and I see that the format of the certificate issued by VAMS has been updated to look more professional. It has a VAMS header graphic, and is titled "Certificate of COVID-19 Vaccination". But nowhere does it reference CDC, or even our country name. On the whole, this seems even less official than the CDC card...apart from the impossible to verify VAMS ID number.
It saddens me that there are people who would rather forge a form than act responsibly, but I think that CDC card is official as it can get for US vaccinations.
Jun 11, 2021, 11:33 pm
#51
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ٌThe CDC card reads “record of vaccination.” That is a certificate; a document doesn’t have to include the word “certificate” for it to certify something, which the CDC record of vaccination certainly does. If anything, the absence of definition of what constitutes a valid certificate should make the CDC card that much more acceptable, since the IATA program does not say, for instance, “the certificate must say ‘certificate.’”
Don't try and play the "absence means I'm right" game with a government, especially not in the EU. It doesn't matter a damn what IATA or Timatic say. It only matters what the Spanish say, and secondary to that, what the airline agent happens to think at that moment the Spanish say. The second part can be argued at the time to a degree.
Jun 12, 2021, 1:57 am
#52
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If you're going to try and play lawyer then you're going to have to do better than that. "Certificate" has specific legal meaning and a "record" is not it. That's why you can have things like a *certified* record of XYZ, as well as an original certificate. The CDC cards are *not* a certificate of vaccination in the proper sense. They are, as they say they are, simply a record of vaccination.
Don't try and play the "absence means I'm right" game with a government, especially not in the EU. It doesn't matter a damn what IATA or Timatic say. It only matters what the Spanish say, and secondary to that, what the airline agent happens to think at that moment the Spanish say. The second part can be argued at the time to a degree.
Don't try and play the "absence means I'm right" game with a government, especially not in the EU. It doesn't matter a damn what IATA or Timatic say. It only matters what the Spanish say, and secondary to that, what the airline agent happens to think at that moment the Spanish say. The second part can be argued at the time to a degree.
"Yes, if you meet the requirements to enter Spain, you may travel, presenting a document/certificate certifying vaccination against COVID-19"
As a poster said above, it would make no sense for Spain to accept US Residents but not accept the CDC issued card recording/certifying/documenting vaccination. In fact, nothing in the Spain Travel Health website would indicate the CDC card would not be accepted, quite the opposite.
Jun 12, 2021, 2:42 am
#53
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The lesson I take from this discussion is that, during COVID times, you should fly direct to the country you are intending to visit...
Although that's also no guarantee, the more people who (unfairly IMO) are being asked to judge your eligibility to travel, the more opportunities for something to go wrong.
Although that's also no guarantee, the more people who (unfairly IMO) are being asked to judge your eligibility to travel, the more opportunities for something to go wrong.
Jun 12, 2021, 2:45 am
#54
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There are some specific certificates which have a more precise definition. To stick with Covid, the "EU Digital COVID Certificate" is one of these. To take another example outside the covid context, a "Birth Certificate" or "Marriage Certificate" will, in most jurisdictions, be a quite specific document in a specific format.
OTOH, there is no "specific legal" definition that enables us to distinguish in general a "certificate" from an official "record". And it is reasonably clear in our context that what is required by the Spanish authorities is official evidence of vaccination. And if the Spanish authorities accept a CDC card as sufficient evidence of vaccination, this constitutes a document regarded by the Spanish authorities as officially certifying vaccination, which is all that is needed.
Jun 12, 2021, 3:10 am
#55
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The lesson I take from this discussion is that, during COVID times, you should fly direct to the country you are intending to visit...
Although that's also no guarantee, the more people who (unfairly IMO) are being asked to judge your eligibility to travel, the more opportunities for something to go wrong.
Although that's also no guarantee, the more people who (unfairly IMO) are being asked to judge your eligibility to travel, the more opportunities for something to go wrong.
I was almost denied boarding on a direct MAD-BRU flight because the gate agent didn't accept my IT passport and ID card, issued by Italian consulate in Brussels with my current belgian address on them, as a proof I was living in Belgium and therefore I didn't need a pre-flight covid test. All that after my husband, going before me, showed the same agent his passport -same as mine - and was waved over with no second thought.
There are too many different regulations and exceptions for airline personnel to be always up to date, and you can get check-in and/or gate agents with no patience nor desire to help/understand also on direct flights.
Jun 12, 2021, 3:32 am
#56
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Care to explain how exactly EU261 will come into play here?
Jun 12, 2021, 3:40 am
#57
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Jun 12, 2021, 3:42 am
#58
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EC261 still applies in the UK because it’s been written into law here. There may be deviations in the future if there are implementation decisions made in the European court system - those would also have to be “ratified” by a UK court (which would only happen if a case came before them) to be considered precedent.
Jun 12, 2021, 3:42 am
#59
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Jun 12, 2021, 5:02 am
#60
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Personally I would let this one slide. EC261 exists as important consumer protection, and it came about due to some airlines being beyond cavalier in their approach to irrops. Here BA may well have got it wrong on the CDC card, maybe the clock was running down to ensure an ontime departure, but BA did have a good reason to be cautious about the lack of documentation. What they did next was to fix their mistake fairly quickly and get the passenger on their way, albeit with a few hours of delay. Companies make mistakes, we all do, but it's how they fix their mistakes is the key thing. I have no doubt that if the OP pursued the matter at some point s/he could extract some money by way of compensation, but given the context I would see that as secondary to getting the trip completed. If BA had essentially abandoned the OP then they would deserve both barrels, but in the circumstances, given an indirect routing, I think this is what we have to endure at least for a few more months.