Court case ruling- FTV vs Refund

Old Feb 5, 2021, 5:50 am
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Court case ruling- FTV vs Refund

Just listening to you and yours on Radio 4, court case has ruled that BA should give refunds where it only offered a FTV.

An individual, who cancelled their own flight only being offered a FTV whose flight was subsequently cancelled was awarded the cost of the flight plus costs on the basis that no contract for the FTV existed and they had subsequently cancelled the flight.

Very interesting and likely to affect many in here, well worth listening to on BBC Sounds.

Sadly doesnt set precedence as wasnt in high enough court.

update- link to the programme https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000rwwm feature around 23:55

Last edited by navylad; Feb 5, 2021 at 6:19 am
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 5:53 am
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Originally Posted by navylad
Just listening to you and yours on Radio 4, court case has ruled that BA should give refunds where it only offered a FTV.

Very interesting and likely to affect many in here, well worth listening to on BBC Sounds.
Isnt this from a while back and was about CEDR? Or has it progressed since then.

The EU recommendations were for refunds after expiry of vouchers. And it is worth remembering that there is a distinction between vouchers for cancelled flights and those where the passenger opted not to travel.
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 5:53 am
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when did they only offer FTVs?
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 5:55 am
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Originally Posted by madfish
Isnt this from a while back and was about CEDR? Or has it progressed since then.

The EU recommendations were for refunds after expiry of vouchers. And it is worth remembering that there is a distinction between vouchers for cancelled flights and those where the passenger opted not to travel.
No, not related to CEDR or to EU recommendations. This was a straight forward small claims court case.

Originally Posted by KARFA
when did they only offer FTVs?
the individual was offered a FTV when they cancelled the flight, the flight itself was subsequently cancelled. Ive updated my original post to reflect.

Ill add a link to the programme once it gets uploaded to sounds.
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 6:00 am
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Originally Posted by navylad
the individual was offered a FTV when they cancelled the flight, the flight itself was subsequently cancelled. Ive updated my original post to reflect.
very odd. so if you take a voluntary refund or voucher on a booking, and the flights you were booked on are subsequently cancelled, you can retrospectively change your mind and get a full refund?
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 6:01 am
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Do you have a link or a broadcast date?

So the passenger cancelled the flight first. They should consider themselves lucky to get a voucher, regardless that the flight was later cancelled.
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 6:03 am
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Originally Posted by madfish
Do you have a link or a broadcast date?

So the passenger cancelled the flight first. They should consider themselves lucky to get a voucher, regardless that the flight was later cancelled.
it was broadcast today. It finished a few moments ago. Just waiting on it to be loaded up on BBC sounds and will link.
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 6:12 am
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Originally Posted by KARFA
very odd. so if you take a voluntary refund or voucher on a booking, and the flights you were booked on are subsequently cancelled, you can retrospectively change your mind and get a full refund?
indeed it sounds very strange - once you ask for FTV the original flight and its details should not really matter....
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 6:26 am
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Originally Posted by nufnuf77
indeed it sounds very strange - once you ask for FTV the original flight and its details should not really matter....
the important point was that the flight had been cancelled between the FTV being requested and the FTV being issued. The judge ruled that the contract for the FTV didnt exist until it was issued and therefore the legal requirements to offer a refund at the point of cancellation was therefore not fulfilled.
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 6:28 am
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ah ok. these days FTVs are issued around 1-2 hours after request so i guess limited applicability now?
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 6:28 am
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There were a number of cases mentioned in the intro, some where someone clicked for a FTV but they wanted a refund. Some people adamant they didn't request an FTV, others did request an FTV but thought BA were doing a sleight of hand to remove the refund online option.. BA's view being that they are no longer eligible for a refund if there is a record of them requesting an FTV before the cancellation. The programme mentioned that some other customers had written to You and Yours to say how good BA were with refunds.

Simon M was going to Innsbruck when the pandemic struck, he went onlne, was offered a voucher. It was not exactly clear, from Simon's version, that his flight was cancelled at that point, but it was definitely cancelled before the scheduled departure time. Later he saw something in the Telegraph about how cancellations entitled people to cash refunds so he emailed BA five times, got no reply, and then went to MCOL. BA said his flight was still operating at the point that the FTV was requested. Separately a relative requested an FTV for a LAS flight, but subsequently got a full refund proactively (it was BAH booking, which as we know in this forum are under separate rules). Simon compared notes with his relative, Simon was aggrieved enough to pursue the matter. His version of the judge's ruling was that no contract existed until the voucher issued / sent to him, and by the time that happened the flight was cancelled. So sounds like it was based on the obscure aspects of contract law. BA paid Simon's refund and isn't appealing the case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000rwwm

Radio 4 indicated there is now an online form for refunds (again something FTers would know).

Last edited by corporate-wage-slave; Feb 5, 2021 at 6:42 am
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 9:02 am
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Thanks for clearing the up, CWS.

There was a similar case that went to CEDR, where a voucher was ‘requested’ but the passenger realised that this was a refund so emailed to request a refund. As there was a delay between requesting the voucher and it being issued, the passenger was successful in their CEDR claim.
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Old Feb 5, 2021, 9:58 am
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As noted, with a very short window between request & issuance, the distinction ought to be in the past unless one has instant buyer's remorse.
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Old Feb 6, 2021, 1:41 am
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In the early days of COVID don’t you remember how hard it was to get a refund from BA ; the website seemed to default to FTV. I remember having to use an online workaround publicised on here to get a refund. I haven’t tried since but it sounds like it is now easier and more transparent to get a refund?
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Old Feb 6, 2021, 2:01 am
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Originally Posted by allturnleft
In the early days of COVID don’t you remember how hard it was to get a refund from BA ; the website seemed to default to FTV. I remember having to use an online workaround publicised on here to get a refund. I haven’t tried since but it sounds like it is now easier and more transparent to get a refund?
Not particularly. You're still redirected to the FTV form if you click on "refund", but there's a subsequent link you can click on to fill in another form to request a refund if your flight has been cancelled. It's much less easy and transparent compared to pre-March when the refund process would tell you exactly what you're getting back, no FTV redirection, no forms to fill, and then process it straight away. You still can't refund a normal Avios booking online, you're just redirected to the FTV page and there's no indication that it's possible to refund by phone.

I do wonder if BA will ever bring back the ability to cancel bookings online properly like before.
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