Vodonovan

Hello there ,

I have never posted on this forum before but I am hoping someone can advise me on my options.

I had a booking in Sept on the now cancelled Sydney route. The booking was using a American Express 2-4-1 voucher into Club world with a GUF2 used to upgrade us to First both ways. This was the only way we can really afford to fly first and certainly as far as Sydney . When I speak to BA all they will offer me is a refund. They are saying they do not have to offer me a re-route on another airline as a ) they only have to do that if the flight is leaving within 24hrs and b) because they have to have an agreement in place for the other airline to transfer an Avios booking which they don’t have for this route. As such , all they will offer is a refund . Now I am 90% sure I have the same rights as a cash booking and that EU261 also makes no distinction between cash/Avios nor imposes any time limit of when the flight is leaving . I have emailed them so my request is in writing but so far no response (and I do accept they are busy now with more urgent issues !) .

Do I have the right to demand the re-route in first on another airline as I believe , would I have to accept a business option if that’s all they could offer on a code share (and could I get my GUF2 be credited back ?) or do I have to take the refund because of the time / Avios vouchers used.

I don’t want to pay for first tickets independently, take them to arbitration to claim it back and lose so would appreciate advice on what my actual rights are with regards to the excuses I am getting from BA. Likewise appreciate thoughts on what others would accept in this scenario in terms of realistic outcomes . I am not sure if they would class this as “outstanding circumstances” so EU261 doesn’t apply but to my understanding this would not stand as the flight was released for sale in September with full knowledge of a pandemic conditions and as such was a known issue that they released in spite of so could not be claimed as extraordinary or force majeure.

I appreciate BA are in difficult times so I am trying to give them plenty of notice of my intention so they can secure me a cheap fare bucket whilst other Airlines have sales on to minimise the impact . I just feel they are trying to force me down the refund route as it’s cheaper for them and I don’t appreciate being misled .....or am I misunderstanding and they are correct ?

I’m not sure how to proceed as this is a special trip and I don’t really want to be fighting this for the next 9 months and then be left without a flight or a very expensive fare bucket if they won’t budge!

Can I get advice from arbitration on which way they would likely rule or do I have to wait till the last minute when BA will have to refund before I can do anything.

Many thanks in advance

Often1

First, the purely practical. When, whether and under what restrictions you may travel now or anytime in the forseeable future is entirely unclear. I presume that you are aware of entry restrictions, quarantine requirements, limitations on how many passengers may be admitted and your responsibility to pay the costs of your quarantine. All a way of suggesting that unless you have nailed down the specifics of your entry, it is not worth worrying about how you will get there as situation will likely repeat itself multiple times

A ticket is a ticket. How one pays for it is irrelevant for purposes of EC 261/2004.

But, there is no precedential authority for the proposition that the Regulation requires rebooking on other carriers. When BA does so, it does so within its own policy guidelines. If those differ for avios, that is a BA matter.

You are also up against non-binding Guidance issued by the EC last April specifying that during (not as the result of) the pandemic, that a refund would suffice. As noted it is non-binding and applied at the time of your purchase. How much weight a UK court would give that Guidance today is unclear. On the other hand, it is well-reasoned.

All of that adds up to the caution that one might very well not prevail and if one does so, it might take a very lone time. For that reason and because you note that you are hard-pressed to absorb the cost of F on your own, it would be prudent not to use self help and incur any expense which will be a strain should it not be reimbursed as it may well not be reimbursed.

When the time comes, I would focus on routings rather than class of service in the first instance. If you can align routing and quarantine arrangements, you may want to take that as waiting for F to reappear may be a long process.

Mwenenzi

Vodonovan Welcome to FT
AU Government has stated that Australia is not expected to be open to general travel until late 2021, at best. Rampant C19 places, like USA & UK, are likely to be at the end of the list.
You have not stated what passports you would be travelling on. In these times of restricted entry that can make a big difference.
FT thread--> https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ocea...er-15-mar.html

Other Oneworld airlines currently flying to Australia from your side of the world are QR Qatar, CX Cathay Pacific & JL Japan, with limited services.
But expect BAEC would not just transfer you over to QR & CX with business class award tickets. Awards are almost always native flights and not codeshares.
BA Amex Express 2-4-1 voucher & GUF2 are BA specific. I guess not transferable to other airlines.

Looked for a new award on QR with BA avios?

IMHO going the legalistic route with get you little to nothing. Or cost you money money money.
Try again in 2022?

corporate-wage-slave

Welcome to Flyertalk and welcome to the BA forum Vodonovan. To this specific question, you have the right to being rebooked to a new date under EC261, but not the right to another airline. Nor do you have the absolute right to travel in First, airlines have the general right to downgrade you so long as they pay the reimbursement mechanism. It's true that in accepting your booking BA knew there was a pandemic on, but I would suggest this also applies to you too. There is effectively no commercial flying to Australia at the moment (essentially it's tightly controlled repatriation services) and BA can't change that. Since your flight is in September 2021, I suggest you either get the full refund now - which is a remedy on EC261 but at that point you become a former BA passenger - or wait until August to see what happens. My hunch is that there won't be commercial flying to Australia until vaccine coverage is effective and widely available in Europe and Australia, and September seems a bit soon at this point. But predicting this pandemic is a mug's game.

There is more information on BA's rebooking policies in the main Cancellation and Rebook thread, and last year's thread has many data point in it too.

cauchy

Unless you've got an imminent plan for what you'll do with the cash and miles, I don't see the advantage to taking a refund right now. Also, you might want to factor in the expiry date of your vouchers.

If Sydney is still shut or heavily restricted in September, will you still be going? You can alternatively ask to be rebooked to pretty much any other date. BA often insists this be during the validity period of the ticket (must take 1st flight within a year from booking, and return within a year after 1st flight) but I'm not aware of any legal precedent underpinning this and there are also grounds to extending ticket validity etc.

The other advantage to waiting it out is that it's quite possible that "we can only refund you" EC 261 cases will start making it to County Court, and if the airlines start losing they may change their internal policies.

Vodonovan

Thank you for the reply. Yes. All points in your first paragraph noted and understood. Everything is subject to uncertainty and change between now and then but I just want to make sure I am clear on at least my rights for when I have to start making choices.

I appreciate the information on the precedent set in April and also the note of caution with respect to booking on other airlines. This was where my confusion lay as all rights I could find talk about rebooking rights , but I was unsure if that only applied to the native airline or across the board. It looks as though its still a bit ambiguous with respect to other Airlines this far out so its shaky ground with no one of knowing which was a judgement would go

Thank you for your input - its been hugely helpful. I will see what BA say or if they get a policy in place but if not , the refund may be the way to go and see what I can book myself closer to the time rather than pushing for the rebook.

Thank you!

Vodonovan

Thank you for the reply . I would be travelling on a UK passport and ultimately I am actually trying to get to Fiji. I booked to Syd as thats the furthest I could get on the 241 voucher and was going to pick up a small hop from Syd-Nad.

I think the general consensus is that there is no certainty on if I would win the fight or indeed if this route is even a viable option with respect to Aus opening even for transit if I did, so likely better taking the refund in this instance.

Thank you !

Vodonovan

Thank you . I take your point on the Pandemic knowledge that I was in the same scenario and I think thats fair. I think I booked knowing I had rights should it be cancelled (or that I could easily cancel myself if it was avios) so I made a judgement myself that I would take the risk but perhaps my assumptions on what my rights were, were a little incorrect - you live and learn !

For me , its a special trip as its a milestone birthday celebration I have been planning for years in Fiji that I am desperate to go ahead so I am just trying to do al I can but yes, its just going to be a waiting came I guess. I think I just bide my time and accept its likely to be the refund .

Thank you - I really appreciate the guidance as I am not as experienced as many !

Mwenenzi

SYD was the end of the line for BA, so that is as far as 2-4-1/GUF2 will get you. When(if?) BA restarts SIN-SYD is unknown. In these times airlines selling tickets is not the same as operating a route.
If Fiji is the object that is another question. A ticket to SYD and a separate ticket SYD-NAN is not a "transit" at SYD. Just the end of 1 flight and the start of another starting at the same airport. Under current AU C19 restrictions probably not permissible. Need single ticket. As far as BA (& AU government) your destination is Sydney, Australia.
So more reasons to wait until 2022 or very late 2021
Fiji Airways is a Oneworld connect member. Pre C19 various airlines operated AU-NZ to Fiji.

A map from Great Circle Mapper

Edit [BA forum threads]
Sydney cancelled :-(
BA15/16 [LHR-SIN-SYD] to be operated by 787-9 from Oct 2021

Prospero

Are airside transfers prohibited at SYD? If they are permitted, this is an unnecessary part of the overall risk management equation

Mwenenzi

Allowable subject to rules.
https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/
https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/transiting-australia(last update 07 Dec 2020)

Separate tickets an issue, as a ticket LHR-SIN-SYD would require entry to AU before boarding. An airline accepting a separate onward ticket in lieu of formal AU entry documentation would now be a risk. Have read on FT before C19 was not usual, depending on passport held. Different now.
Airside transits at SYD & MEL for onward flights New Zealand do happen now. People are flying in on QR & EK and other airlines.
But at the time when OP wants to travel the rules could be anything

Edit
On separate tickets baggage interlining is another possible problem. No all airlines will interline on separate tickets.

Dave Noble

Even if permittedm with 2 separate tickets, then the passenger may need to have authority to enter Australia, regardless of whether planning to clear immigration , so would not discount that issue

As far as the booking goes, the passenger's destination is Sydney

Vodonovan

It's understood it's a separate flight and not a transit, it's a separate ticket that would have required "landing" in Aus. The Syd-Nan would have been the day after with a local stay overnight at Syd. All this was on the assumption that Aus was "open" by Sept which may of been possible given Qantas looking at opening international flights from July which would allow this. Absolutely understood its not transit and based on a very big assumption on what changed between now and then with global policy which is risky. Thats a separate issue and risk in itself which I fully accept,and I was prepared to cancel myself if the situation does not allow .

All I am trying to work out for now is the theoretical rights on the Cancelled Lon-Syd and I can then balance this with the other risk (such as non entry to Aus) so I understand my actual options properly and make an informed decision. I really appreciate everyones input and guidance as I now understand my options better than I did with respect to my rights. I understand now that BA were not being as unreasonable as I perhaps thought and as such , I will sit tight and expect the refund later and in the meantime, watch how it all plays out and rebook on a route closer to the time that is open to me.

cauchy

I don't have much experience with the Australian Home Office, but there seems to be two options for transit - Transit without Visa (TWOV) and Transit with a Transit Visa. The TWOV requirements are far more restrictive than the Transit Visa ones. For example, TWOV requires

However, the transit visa webpage doesn't have this restriction, and it doesn't say anything about travel having to be on a single ticket. Indeed, it lets you stay for 72 hours, and it mentions the possibility of transferring to a ship (which would almost certainly not be on the same ticket). Details:

https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visa...71#Eligibility

If the OP is granted a 771 visa, then I think it should all work out fine. And if it doesn't, the OP would have strong grounds to fight a denied boarding.

BrianDromey

OP, welcome to FlyerTalk!

It is probably pertinent to consider what the restrictions are on entry to Fiji. From what I can see on the Fiji tourist board website Fiji is closed to foreign visits until further notice, what the situation will be in September is anyones guess. The airport is closed and no commercial operations are permitted. I honestly feel that trying to reschedule this trip 9 months in advance is going to create more trouble than it is worth.

Under the standard rebooking guidelines BA should rebook you to other BA destinations, if you can use your Avios, GUF and 2-4-1 to another destination? For most BA destinations you should receive an Avios refund too. Personally I would look to direct, non-stop flights on the BA network with compete ticketing from end-to-end. The risk of a country changing requirements at short notice in response to a mutation or new cluster of infection is quite high. Look at France in the run-up to Christmas, for example. I know you had Fiji planned, but there might be significant knock-ons in terms of tourist attractions, experiences and hotels too once the country re-opens. Social distancing, vaccinations, etc could all play a part and some may not be open or in a position to reopen after 12-18 months of no income.

Sorry to sound so negative and while BA could be forced to do things legally, if it really is a dream trip a more pragmatic approach might be to delay the trip so that it can be the best possible trip, rather than disappointing in some way.