Last edit by: corporate-wage-slave
Link to the full original text of the regulations in PDF format
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
Brexit and Covid pointers: see post 8
Click here for last year's (2020) thread.
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
Brexit and Covid pointers: see post 8
Click here for last year's (2020) thread.
The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
#61
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The North
Posts: 1,834
“Hi <advisor>, I’m sorry, but it feels like you’re ignoring the point I made - I was told that there would not be any additional costs associated with changing the return flight due to the cancellation on the booking, as long as this change was done at the same time.
So if <this> was not actioned by your colleague, and the change to the return flight was not done at the same time despite my request (and being explicitly told it would not cost anything more), this is not my responsibility.
The sequence of events is that I asked to change my return flight without charge, I was told it would be possible without charge at the same time, I provided the new dates, and I waited for confirmation that didn’t come.
Now I’ve chased it up, I’m being told it would be subject to fare/tax difference (if there are any). This directly contradicts what I was told earlier.
If those charges are due to the fact that it wasn’t done at the same time as the changes to the outbound (which would not have incurred charges) that is not my fault, but lies with one of your colleagues for not processing both changes at the same time.
I would be very grateful if you could confirm that these changes to the return flight could be made without any further charge, in line with what your colleague <advisor2> confirmed yesterday, as part of the one free change that is permitted due to the cancellation on the booking.”
So if <this> was not actioned by your colleague, and the change to the return flight was not done at the same time despite my request (and being explicitly told it would not cost anything more), this is not my responsibility.
The sequence of events is that I asked to change my return flight without charge, I was told it would be possible without charge at the same time, I provided the new dates, and I waited for confirmation that didn’t come.
Now I’ve chased it up, I’m being told it would be subject to fare/tax difference (if there are any). This directly contradicts what I was told earlier.
If those charges are due to the fact that it wasn’t done at the same time as the changes to the outbound (which would not have incurred charges) that is not my fault, but lies with one of your colleagues for not processing both changes at the same time.
I would be very grateful if you could confirm that these changes to the return flight could be made without any further charge, in line with what your colleague <advisor2> confirmed yesterday, as part of the one free change that is permitted due to the cancellation on the booking.”
We couldn't change the return flight to <date>, as this is extending your time away even more compared to what you had previously. Therefore, any changes to the return would have to be done as per the fare rules, I'm afraid. We have already queried this and advised this is how it would have to be.
Last edited by squawk; Mar 14, 2021 at 6:26 am
#62
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,466
My understanding of policy was that if you had to move the outbound, you could move the inbound too. In previous unrelated Customer Guidelines, there is sometimes a phrase in there that (e.g.) if a flight is moved then the length of the stay away can be preserved. So if you had a weekend break in Europe going out Friday coming back Monday, then if Friday was cancelled you would be OK to rebook to Thusday out, Sunday back. Your case goes somewhat beyond this, so to some extent you are relying on whether an agent is keen for you to stay a happy customer or not, in terms of perhaps being a little flexible. And to some extent this is why telephoning is better than Twitter, since once Twitter has got it all down in black and white, there will be no budging, whereas on a telephone call you can flirt if necessary to get that flexiibility or HUACA if this gets you the cold porridge treatment. So I think you will probably be stuck with this, unless, of course, stuff changes again.
#63
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The North
Posts: 1,834
EC261 only handles the immediately disrupted flight(s), not the knock-on effects on other services. So unfortunately you can't use that as a bargaining lever here.
My understanding of policy was that if you had to move the outbound, you could move the inbound too. In previous unrelated Customer Guidelines, there is sometimes a phrase in there that (e.g.) if a flight is moved then the length of the stay away can be preserved. So if you had a weekend break in Europe going out Friday coming back Monday, then if Friday was cancelled you would be OK to rebook to Thusday out, Sunday back. Your case goes somewhat beyond this, so to some extent you are relying on whether an agent is keen for you to stay a happy customer or not, in terms of perhaps being a little flexible. And to some extent this is why telephoning is better than Twitter, since once Twitter has got it all down in black and white, there will be no budging, whereas on a telephone call you can flirt if necessary to get that flexiibility or HUACA if this gets you the cold porridge treatment. So I think you will probably be stuck with this, unless, of course, stuff changes again.
My understanding of policy was that if you had to move the outbound, you could move the inbound too. In previous unrelated Customer Guidelines, there is sometimes a phrase in there that (e.g.) if a flight is moved then the length of the stay away can be preserved. So if you had a weekend break in Europe going out Friday coming back Monday, then if Friday was cancelled you would be OK to rebook to Thusday out, Sunday back. Your case goes somewhat beyond this, so to some extent you are relying on whether an agent is keen for you to stay a happy customer or not, in terms of perhaps being a little flexible. And to some extent this is why telephoning is better than Twitter, since once Twitter has got it all down in black and white, there will be no budging, whereas on a telephone call you can flirt if necessary to get that flexiibility or HUACA if this gets you the cold porridge treatment. So I think you will probably be stuck with this, unless, of course, stuff changes again.
I actually range twice in the first instance (SA call centre in both cases) , but didn't get anywhere with them at all about rebooking the outbound onto LH which was the more important issue for various reasons.
It was only by speaking a member of the Twitter team who said that the LH agreement expired a few days before my trip, which gave me enough information to request an earlier rebooking. As this aspect is resolved, the change to the return is a 'nice to have' rather than a critical issue. It's still well over 4 months until the return flight, so I imagine there will be a cancellation that will open up some flexibility sometime in the interim.
I will bear in mind the advice to call in the future, and will take some lessons from KARFA in the UK Lockdown/vaccine thread about fluttering one's eyelashes in pursuit of one's goals
#64
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 86
Thank you for this very helpful post. NB Post 1 refers to the "Sudbury address above", but I can't see any Sudbury address in the preceding sections.
#65
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,041
This should be of interest even if the particular case doesn't involve BA
Court of Justice of the European Union PRESS RELEASE No 44/21 Luxembourg, 23 March 2021
A strike organised by a trade union of the staff of an air carrier that is intended in particular to secure pay increases does not fall within the concept of
an ‘extraordinary circumstance’ capable of releasing the airline from its obligation to pay compensation for cancellation or long delay in respect of the flights concerned
That is so even if the strike is organised in compliance with the conditions laid down by national legislation
https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/...cp210044en.pdf
Court of Justice of the European Union PRESS RELEASE No 44/21 Luxembourg, 23 March 2021
A strike organised by a trade union of the staff of an air carrier that is intended in particular to secure pay increases does not fall within the concept of
an ‘extraordinary circumstance’ capable of releasing the airline from its obligation to pay compensation for cancellation or long delay in respect of the flights concerned
That is so even if the strike is organised in compliance with the conditions laid down by national legislation
https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/...cp210044en.pdf
#66
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,015
This should be of interest even if the particular case doesn't involve BA
Court of Justice of the European Union PRESS RELEASE No 44/21 Luxembourg, 23 March 2021
A strike organised by a trade union of the staff of an air carrier that is intended in particular to secure pay increases does not fall within the concept of
an extraordinary circumstance capable of releasing the airline from its obligation to pay compensation for cancellation or long delay in respect of the flights concerned
That is so even if the strike is organised in compliance with the conditions laid down by national legislation
https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/...cp210044en.pdf
Court of Justice of the European Union PRESS RELEASE No 44/21 Luxembourg, 23 March 2021
A strike organised by a trade union of the staff of an air carrier that is intended in particular to secure pay increases does not fall within the concept of
an extraordinary circumstance capable of releasing the airline from its obligation to pay compensation for cancellation or long delay in respect of the flights concerned
That is so even if the strike is organised in compliance with the conditions laid down by national legislation
https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/...cp210044en.pdf
Other BA flights are not covered by the EU regulation but by a British law which seeks to duplicate the EU regulation. Would such flights be subject to this ruling? The ruling was delivered after the end of the Brexit transition period, but the matter started in a Swedish court in 2019 and it seems that the case was deferred to the European Court of Justice in January 2020 right before the UK left the EU. I thought that recent EU court rulings wouldn't apply to the UK, but maybe it depends on the flight date or the date on which the case was sent to the European Court of Justice?
#67
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,188
Im sure this is an easy one, but would appreciate any advice. I had a flight booked using AA miles but operated by BA. I received notification 13 days before the flight that it was cancelled and I saw that I had been rebooked onto an alternative flight a couple of days later. I spoke to BA asking to be rebooked at a later date under Art 8(1)(c) but they said I would need to contact AA as they issued the ticket. I spoke with AA and they say they cant do anything as there are no award seats available around the date Ive asked for (although revenue tickets are available in the cabin booked). My understanding of EC261 is that its the operating carrier (BA) who is responsible for rebooking, not the marketing carrier (AA) - is this correct?
#68
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 42,698
deleted, i misunderstood, sorry
#69
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,466
Yes it is the operating carrier, but realistically it's very difficult to enforce this, since your contract is with AA and they have ticketing control. You can flail at BA as much as you like but they won't rebook you unless AA release the ticket, and AA won't be doing that on a mileage ticket. You could, I guess, pay for a revenue ticket and then try to charge that against BA, but it's messy and not certain of success. So pragmatically you best check availability frequently and see if a better slot comes up. However 8.1.c is effectively best endeavours anyway, since it's subject to availability of seats, and I'm sure both AA and BA will say there are no (award) seats available. It's just a fact of life at the moment, and so where possible it is best not to add complexity to bookings by using one mileage system to book on another airline.
#70
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,188
Yes it is the operating carrier, but realistically it's very difficult to enforce this, since your contract is with AA and they have ticketing control. You can flail at BA as much as you like but they won't rebook you unless AA release the ticket, and AA won't be doing that on a mileage ticket. You could, I guess, pay for a revenue ticket and then try to charge that against BA, but it's messy and not certain of success. So pragmatically you best check availability frequently and see if a better slot comes up. However 8.1.c is effectively best endeavours anyway, since it's subject to availability of seats, and I'm sure both AA and BA will say there are no (award) seats available. It's just a fact of life at the moment, and so where possible it is best not to add complexity to bookings by using one mileage system to book on another airline.
#71
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,466
Thank you - I had reached the point with BA where I was considering just booking a mileage ticket and reclaiming the cost through court. Are you aware of any precedent for there needing to award seats available? I appreciate this is the argument that BA will likely use but it seems this is inferring words that dont exist in the regulations.
#72
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 45
Hello, I posted about this on the cancellations thread a little while ago, but looking for advice on a related matter here.
I booked flights to DXB on 12th October 2020, for Feb 2021 using a 241 and taking advantage of the half price Avios sale, CW out and F return. Subsequently the flights were cancelled, I tried to rebook to April, but was told (as I later found out, incorrectly) I couldn't do that as there was no CW and F reward availability and my options were to book on a flight with availability, FTV or refund. I accepted a refund - although I wish I'd stuck to my guns re the Principal Guidelines! I have since rebooked for October 2021, unfortunately only Economy was available. I didn't realise that as a Reward Flight Saver, my 241 voucher couldn't be used, so questioned this via Twitter receiving more incorrect info, but I now know why the voucher wasn't applied. That part has been resolved, but I have raised a complaint, as if I'd rebooked as I'd wished, on to the April flights, I would have then been able to rebook into my preferred cabins, and flight times, for October.
I wondered if anyone thinks I have valid grounds for a complaint to CEDR, as I was 'misled' on several occasions by BA agents about the terms and conditions that should have applied to my original booking? Thanks!
I booked flights to DXB on 12th October 2020, for Feb 2021 using a 241 and taking advantage of the half price Avios sale, CW out and F return. Subsequently the flights were cancelled, I tried to rebook to April, but was told (as I later found out, incorrectly) I couldn't do that as there was no CW and F reward availability and my options were to book on a flight with availability, FTV or refund. I accepted a refund - although I wish I'd stuck to my guns re the Principal Guidelines! I have since rebooked for October 2021, unfortunately only Economy was available. I didn't realise that as a Reward Flight Saver, my 241 voucher couldn't be used, so questioned this via Twitter receiving more incorrect info, but I now know why the voucher wasn't applied. That part has been resolved, but I have raised a complaint, as if I'd rebooked as I'd wished, on to the April flights, I would have then been able to rebook into my preferred cabins, and flight times, for October.
I wondered if anyone thinks I have valid grounds for a complaint to CEDR, as I was 'misled' on several occasions by BA agents about the terms and conditions that should have applied to my original booking? Thanks!
#73
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,466
Always use FT in this situation, you will get good and accurate advice in this forum.
#74
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 45
Thank you CWS, much appreciated. Nothing to lose by trying the CEDR route and I will put my preferred resolution to BA before I proceed. I'll post any follow up here.
#75
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Scotland
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 10
Hi Everyone,
I was hoping somebody might be able to share their opinion on a trip I have booked for July. Both my outbound and inbound flights to Sofia have been cancelled for 20th and 29th July this year - I was told by BA back in Feb and offered a refund or flights with BA one day later. I need to travel outbound on 20th as their flight the next day arrives too late for me.
As far as I understand, EC261 only applies a notice period for compensation and not to your re-routing rights. I'd like to be booked on an alternative flight departing on 20th July. There aren't any direct flights and the closest option to a partner carrier (which I thought BA would be amenable to) is an IB codeshare on Bulgaria Air via Madrid (other options are LH group, KLM, etc.). Spoke to BA via Twitter who told me that they won't rebook me via Madrid as the onward flight to Sofia isn't IB operated. When I mentioned EC261 re-routing to them, I was told this does not apply to me because of the notice they have given of the cancellation. Is that the case here?
I then said I could take their flights the day earlier for outbound and day later for my inbound, but would like BA to cover my extra nights of hotel expenses under Article 9 - again I was told no because of the notice they've given.
Is BA right to essentially refuse to re-route me on another carrier on my booked dates because of their greater than 14 days' notice, or should I be pushing back?
Many thanks
I was hoping somebody might be able to share their opinion on a trip I have booked for July. Both my outbound and inbound flights to Sofia have been cancelled for 20th and 29th July this year - I was told by BA back in Feb and offered a refund or flights with BA one day later. I need to travel outbound on 20th as their flight the next day arrives too late for me.
As far as I understand, EC261 only applies a notice period for compensation and not to your re-routing rights. I'd like to be booked on an alternative flight departing on 20th July. There aren't any direct flights and the closest option to a partner carrier (which I thought BA would be amenable to) is an IB codeshare on Bulgaria Air via Madrid (other options are LH group, KLM, etc.). Spoke to BA via Twitter who told me that they won't rebook me via Madrid as the onward flight to Sofia isn't IB operated. When I mentioned EC261 re-routing to them, I was told this does not apply to me because of the notice they have given of the cancellation. Is that the case here?
I then said I could take their flights the day earlier for outbound and day later for my inbound, but would like BA to cover my extra nights of hotel expenses under Article 9 - again I was told no because of the notice they've given.
Is BA right to essentially refuse to re-route me on another carrier on my booked dates because of their greater than 14 days' notice, or should I be pushing back?
Many thanks