Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > British Airways | Executive Club
Reload this Page >

The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

    Hide Wikipost
Old Jul 3, 22, 5:03 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Print Wikipost

Old Mar 14, 21, 6:06 am
  #61  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The North
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by DYKWIA View Post
I'd ask them to review the recording of your original call where you were clearly given the option to change both flights. And it appears this was verbally confirmed.

They should the make the change for free.
Hi @DYKWIA - all of this (bar the unhelpful initial contact with the SA call centre) has been written exchanges via the Twitter team. The italicised text above is verbatim. My response last night was:

“Hi <advisor>, I’m sorry, but it feels like you’re ignoring the point I made - I was told that there would not be any additional costs associated with changing the return flight due to the cancellation on the booking, as long as this change was done at the same time.

So if <this> was not actioned by your colleague, and the change to the return flight was not done at the same time despite my request (and being explicitly told it would not cost anything more), this is not my responsibility.

The sequence of events is that I asked to change my return flight without charge, I was told it would be possible without charge at the same time, I provided the new dates, and I waited for confirmation that didn’t come.

Now I’ve chased it up, I’m being told it would be subject to fare/tax difference (if there are any). This directly contradicts what I was told earlier.

If those charges are due to the fact that it wasn’t done at the same time as the changes to the outbound (which would not have incurred charges) that is not my fault, but lies with one of your colleagues for not processing both changes at the same time.

I would be very grateful if you could confirm that these changes to the return flight could be made without any further charge, in line with what your colleague <advisor2> confirmed yesterday, as part of the one free change that is permitted due to the cancellation on the booking.”
The response (from yet another advisor) overnight was:

We couldn't change the return flight to <date>, as this is extending your time away even more compared to what you had previously. Therefore, any changes to the return would have to be done as per the fare rules, I'm afraid. We have already queried this and advised this is how it would have to be.
Does this clarify the issue at all?

Last edited by squawk; Mar 14, 21 at 6:26 am
squawk is offline  
Old Mar 14, 21, 6:48 am
  #62  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 54,417
Originally Posted by squawk View Post
Hello, I would appreciate some advice from those more versed in EU261 than me please: does a cancellation to any flight on a booking (in this case the outbound) entitle you to rebook another flight (the return)?
EC261 only handles the immediately disrupted flight(s), not the knock-on effects on other services. So unfortunately you can't use that as a bargaining lever here.

My understanding of policy was that if you had to move the outbound, you could move the inbound too. In previous unrelated Customer Guidelines, there is sometimes a phrase in there that (e.g.) if a flight is moved then the length of the stay away can be preserved. So if you had a weekend break in Europe going out Friday coming back Monday, then if Friday was cancelled you would be OK to rebook to Thusday out, Sunday back. Your case goes somewhat beyond this, so to some extent you are relying on whether an agent is keen for you to stay a happy customer or not, in terms of perhaps being a little flexible. And to some extent this is why telephoning is better than Twitter, since once Twitter has got it all down in black and white, there will be no budging, whereas on a telephone call you can flirt if necessary to get that flexiibility or HUACA if this gets you the cold porridge treatment. So I think you will probably be stuck with this, unless, of course, stuff changes again.
adrianlondon and squawk like this.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  
Old Mar 14, 21, 8:09 am
  #63  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The North
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
EC261 only handles the immediately disrupted flight(s), not the knock-on effects on other services. So unfortunately you can't use that as a bargaining lever here.

My understanding of policy was that if you had to move the outbound, you could move the inbound too. In previous unrelated Customer Guidelines, there is sometimes a phrase in there that (e.g.) if a flight is moved then the length of the stay away can be preserved. So if you had a weekend break in Europe going out Friday coming back Monday, then if Friday was cancelled you would be OK to rebook to Thusday out, Sunday back. Your case goes somewhat beyond this, so to some extent you are relying on whether an agent is keen for you to stay a happy customer or not, in terms of perhaps being a little flexible. And to some extent this is why telephoning is better than Twitter, since once Twitter has got it all down in black and white, there will be no budging, whereas on a telephone call you can flirt if necessary to get that flexiibility or HUACA if this gets you the cold porridge treatment. So I think you will probably be stuck with this, unless, of course, stuff changes again.
Thank you as ever for your sage advice, corporate-wage-slave . It's good to know about the length-of-stay preservation, should this affect any future weekends away, but you say - this isn't the case here.

I actually range twice in the first instance (SA call centre in both cases) , but didn't get anywhere with them at all about rebooking the outbound onto LH which was the more important issue for various reasons.

It was only by speaking a member of the Twitter team who said that the LH agreement expired a few days before my trip, which gave me enough information to request an earlier rebooking. As this aspect is resolved, the change to the return is a 'nice to have' rather than a critical issue. It's still well over 4 months until the return flight, so I imagine there will be a cancellation that will open up some flexibility sometime in the interim.

I will bear in mind the advice to call in the future, and will take some lessons from KARFA in the UK Lockdown/vaccine thread about fluttering one's eyelashes in pursuit of one's goals
squawk is offline  
Old Mar 23, 21, 4:03 am
  #64  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 69
Thank you for this very helpful post. NB Post 1 refers to the "Sudbury address above", but I can't see any Sudbury address in the preceding sections.
FlyingMoonwards is offline  
Old Mar 23, 21, 5:10 am
  #65  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,021
This should be of interest even if the particular case doesn't involve BA

Court of Justice of the European Union PRESS RELEASE No 44/21 Luxembourg, 23 March 2021
A strike organised by a trade union of the staff of an air carrier that is intended in particular to secure pay increases does not fall within the concept of
an ‘extraordinary circumstance’ capable of releasing the airline from its obligation to pay compensation for cancellation or long delay in respect of the flights concerned

That is so even if the strike is organised in compliance with the conditions laid down by national legislation
https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/...cp210044en.pdf
Hannibal Lecter is offline  
Old Mar 23, 21, 7:16 am
  #66  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,919
Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter View Post
This should be of interest even if the particular case doesn't involve BA

Court of Justice of the European Union PRESS RELEASE No 44/21 Luxembourg, 23 March 2021
A strike organised by a trade union of the staff of an air carrier that is intended in particular to secure pay increases does not fall within the concept of
an ‘extraordinary circumstance’ capable of releasing the airline from its obligation to pay compensation for cancellation or long delay in respect of the flights concerned

That is so even if the strike is organised in compliance with the conditions laid down by national legislation
https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/...cp210044en.pdf
BA flights are covered by the EU regulation if the flight departs from an EU country. The recent ruling is applicable to such flights.

Other BA flights are not covered by the EU regulation but by a British law which seeks to duplicate the EU regulation. Would such flights be subject to this ruling? The ruling was delivered after the end of the Brexit transition period, but the matter started in a Swedish court in 2019 and it seems that the case was deferred to the European Court of Justice in January 2020 right before the UK left the EU. I thought that recent EU court rulings wouldn't apply to the UK, but maybe it depends on the flight date or the date on which the case was sent to the European Court of Justice?
Im a new user is offline  
Old Mar 26, 21, 5:48 am
  #67  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 1,819
I’m sure this is an easy one, but would appreciate any advice. I had a flight booked using AA miles but operated by BA. I received notification 13 days before the flight that it was cancelled and I saw that I had been rebooked onto an alternative flight a couple of days later. I spoke to BA asking to be rebooked at a later date under Art 8(1)(c) but they said I would need to contact AA as they issued the ticket. I spoke with AA and they say they can’t do anything as there are no award seats available around the date I’ve asked for (although revenue tickets are available in the cabin booked). My understanding of EC261 is that it’s the operating carrier (BA) who is responsible for rebooking, not the marketing carrier (AA) - is this correct?
TabTraveller is offline  
Old Mar 26, 21, 5:56 am
  #68  
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 36,404
deleted, i misunderstood, sorry
KARFA is online now  
Old Mar 26, 21, 5:59 am
  #69  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 54,417
Yes it is the operating carrier, but realistically it's very difficult to enforce this, since your contract is with AA and they have ticketing control. You can flail at BA as much as you like but they won't rebook you unless AA release the ticket, and AA won't be doing that on a mileage ticket. You could, I guess, pay for a revenue ticket and then try to charge that against BA, but it's messy and not certain of success. So pragmatically you best check availability frequently and see if a better slot comes up. However 8.1.c is effectively best endeavours anyway, since it's subject to availability of seats, and I'm sure both AA and BA will say there are no (award) seats available. It's just a fact of life at the moment, and so where possible it is best not to add complexity to bookings by using one mileage system to book on another airline.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  
Old Mar 26, 21, 6:44 am
  #70  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 1,819
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
Yes it is the operating carrier, but realistically it's very difficult to enforce this, since your contract is with AA and they have ticketing control. You can flail at BA as much as you like but they won't rebook you unless AA release the ticket, and AA won't be doing that on a mileage ticket. You could, I guess, pay for a revenue ticket and then try to charge that against BA, but it's messy and not certain of success. So pragmatically you best check availability frequently and see if a better slot comes up. However 8.1.c is effectively best endeavours anyway, since it's subject to availability of seats, and I'm sure both AA and BA will say there are no (award) seats available. It's just a fact of life at the moment, and so where possible it is best not to add complexity to bookings by using one mileage system to book on another airline.
Thank you - I had reached the point with BA where I was considering just booking a mileage ticket and reclaiming the cost through court. Are you aware of any precedent for there needing to “award seats” available? I appreciate this is the argument that BA will likely use but it seems this is inferring words that don’t exist in the regulations.
TabTraveller is offline  
Old Mar 26, 21, 6:58 am
  #71  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 54,417
Originally Posted by TabTraveller View Post
Thank you - I had reached the point with BA where I was considering just booking a mileage ticket and reclaiming the cost through court. Are you aware of any precedent for there needing to “award seats” available? I appreciate this is the argument that BA will likely use but it seems this is inferring words that don’t exist in the regulations.
Yes, you're absolutely right, it's a typical thing that airlines do to impute meaning which doesn't exist in the text. I'm not aware of a senior judgement that can be totally relied upon here, my strong guess is that if it got to the Supreme Court then they would read available seats in an every day use form. Moreover if in doubt the usual decider is that right at the start of the Regulation there is a statement about the intent for a high level of protection for passengers, so if in doubt the consumer should prevail. But I doubt you would want to go to the SC on this, and so your better bet would be to monitor availability and be prepared to be flexible.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  
Old Mar 26, 21, 7:03 am
  #72  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 38
Hello, I posted about this on the cancellations thread a little while ago, but looking for advice on a related matter here.

I booked flights to DXB on 12th October 2020, for Feb 2021 using a 241 and taking advantage of the half price Avios sale, CW out and F return. Subsequently the flights were cancelled, I tried to rebook to April, but was told (as I later found out, incorrectly) I couldn't do that as there was no CW and F reward availability and my options were to book on a flight with availability, FTV or refund. I accepted a refund - although I wish I'd stuck to my guns re the Principal Guidelines! I have since rebooked for October 2021, unfortunately only Economy was available. I didn't realise that as a Reward Flight Saver, my 241 voucher couldn't be used, so questioned this via Twitter receiving more incorrect info, but I now know why the voucher wasn't applied. That part has been resolved, but I have raised a complaint, as if I'd rebooked as I'd wished, on to the April flights, I would have then been able to rebook into my preferred cabins, and flight times, for October.

I wondered if anyone thinks I have valid grounds for a complaint to CEDR, as I was 'misled' on several occasions by BA agents about the terms and conditions that should have applied to my original booking? Thanks!
CosmoCosmo is offline  
Old Mar 26, 21, 7:31 am
  #73  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 54,417
Originally Posted by CosmoCosmo View Post
I wondered if anyone thinks I have valid grounds for a complaint to CEDR, as I was 'misled' on several occasions by BA agents about the terms and conditions that should have applied to my original booking? Thanks!
Potentially you may have a case for CEDR, since in effect you were misadvised and found yourself making suboptimal decisions based on mistakes by staff. There is a provision under Articles 14 and 15 for airlines to be on best behaviour here. But the problem is that both articles have limited enforcement teeth, but you could try with CEDR. You should first work out what would be the right remedy for you, and ask BA for it clearly, for them to turn down. At that point you may have a mechanism to go to CEDR. Now CEDR prefers to deal with clear breaches, whereas your case is a bit of a grey area. This is because you accepted a refund and that is one, probably the most important remedy of EC261, and as soon as you accept the refund you become a former customer at that point. But if you feel strongly about it, I would not discourage you and it would be good to find out what happens.

Always use FT in this situation, you will get good and accurate advice in this forum.
CosmoCosmo likes this.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  
Old Mar 26, 21, 8:04 am
  #74  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 38
Thank you CWS, much appreciated. Nothing to lose by trying the CEDR route and I will put my preferred resolution to BA before I proceed. I'll post any follow up here.
PlaneSpeaking likes this.
CosmoCosmo is offline  
Old Mar 30, 21, 2:46 am
  #75  
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Scotland
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 7
Hi Everyone,

I was hoping somebody might be able to share their opinion on a trip I have booked for July. Both my outbound and inbound flights to Sofia have been cancelled for 20th and 29th July this year - I was told by BA back in Feb and offered a refund or flights with BA one day later. I need to travel outbound on 20th as their flight the next day arrives too late for me.

As far as I understand, EC261 only applies a notice period for compensation and not to your re-routing rights. I'd like to be booked on an alternative flight departing on 20th July. There aren't any direct flights and the closest option to a partner carrier (which I thought BA would be amenable to) is an IB codeshare on Bulgaria Air via Madrid (other options are LH group, KLM, etc.). Spoke to BA via Twitter who told me that they won't rebook me via Madrid as the onward flight to Sofia isn't IB operated. When I mentioned EC261 re-routing to them, I was told this does not apply to me because of the notice they have given of the cancellation. Is that the case here?

I then said I could take their flights the day earlier for outbound and day later for my inbound, but would like BA to cover my extra nights of hotel expenses under Article 9 - again I was told no because of the notice they've given.

Is BA right to essentially refuse to re-route me on another carrier on my booked dates because of their greater than 14 days' notice, or should I be pushing back?

Many thanks
RSW_Travels is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread