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The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

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Old Jul 3, 22, 5:03 am   -   Wikipost
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Old Feb 3, 21, 7:55 am
  #31  
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Originally Posted by och.nat View Post
Thanks KARFA, and that's because of the BA T&Cs rather than anything in EU261? If so I may still try as I don't want to go any time before Oct 21 - and the ability to rebook (I used 50% avios sale and 2-4-1) for any time is a bit of a golden ticket! But I won't hold my breath!
Welcome to Flyertalk and welcome to the BA forum och.nat.

EC261 only gives you a clear right to departure on the very next available operating service. In normal circumstances the next day's flight, of if the service is suspended, the first service after resumption. You also have the right to fly later than that, but it's subject to seats being available, which in turn amounts to only being allowed if you and BA can mutually agree a date for travel. Moreover BA at the moment are scheduling flights to Orlando in April 2021, even if this seems infeasible.

EC261 wasn't really written for a pandemic so it's not quite as open ended as your question implies. If BA cancels your flight, taking a cash refund is better than a maybe booking, of which we get a near daily take of woe in this forum.
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Old Feb 3, 21, 8:09 am
  #32  
 
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Thanks Corporate Wage Slave.

Yes, it is a little opportunistic! But I figure that BA offered me 4 half avios (quarter avios really) tickets to Orlando during school holidays and I was willing to pay them (at a time BA were trying to stimulate travel) so I'll try to use any chance I have of being able to actually use them. Sadly 2021 dates won't work for me now so I think it'll end up in a refund. I got lucky on the involuntary cancellation (which in itself was really odd as they actually only moved the flight by 3.5 hours - but they issued a cancellation rather than reschedule which seems to have opened themselves up) - otherwise I'd be paying £35 each to cancel myself in truth.
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Old Feb 3, 21, 9:10 am
  #33  
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Welcome from me too och.nat!

I was replying on my phone earlier and it doesn't show numbers of posts so didn't realise it was your first.
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Old Feb 15, 21, 5:30 am
  #34  
 
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Wondered if I could get some help from fellow travellers.

Last year we flew to Male from London and the outbound flight was operated fine, we flew in business. The return unfortuantely was hit with lockdown and BA cancelled the flight, we were meant to fly first. All of this was on Avios and used a 241.

They rerouted us on Qatar in business and we returned a couple of days later but with no major drama.

We have contacted them to seek remedies for the delay in return and the downgrade. The delay we are debating via CEDR now, but the downgrade is now the topic of this post.

Am I right in saying that they have to reimburse us 75% of the return leg? BA are claiming all sorts of things, like "they dont need to as they gave us a paid ticket home" and that "we never paid enough in the first place via avios". All of which are rubbish, but they now claim they only need to refund the difference in fares between first and business and not reimburse as per the EC261 regulations.

I am a little confused by this new stance and suggest they are full of... however, can you tell me if I am correct as I have just issued a pre-action notice which is where this new reply comes from (again a new excuse).
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Old Feb 15, 21, 5:35 am
  #35  
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Originally Posted by annihilation View Post
Am I right in saying that they have to reimburse us 75% of the return leg? BA are claiming all sorts of things, like "they dont need to as they gave us a paid ticket home" and that "we never paid enough in the first place via avios". All of which are rubbish, but they now claim they only need to refund the difference in fares between first and business and not reimburse as per the EC261 regulations.
It's the Mennens Formula again, see the wiki and the linked posts. You initially claim the resultant Avios (and cash) from BA, and then translate that to cash only, using an exchange rate of your choice, when going to MCOL. CEDR can take on a claim in Avios.

Without knowing the specifics, while I think you would have a good case for Mennens, I would be surprised if delay compensation is payable, unless you are able to argue the "all reasonable measures" case.
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Old Feb 15, 21, 6:03 am
  #36  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
It's the Mennens Formula again, see the wiki and the linked posts. You initially claim the resultant Avios (and cash) from BA, and then translate that to cash only, using an exchange rate of your choice, when going to MCOL. CEDR can take on a claim in Avios.

Without knowing the specifics, while I think you would have a good case for Mennens, I would be surprised if delay compensation is payable, unless you are able to argue the "all reasonable measures" case.
Thank you - to be clear are you saying I take the actual cash ticket prices and then convert that to avios for the BA claim part and then with MCOL I just use the cash? Sorry if this is clear somewhere, I have only seen illustrations of Mennens in cash, not Avios.
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Old Feb 15, 21, 6:30 am
  #37  
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Originally Posted by annihilation View Post
Thank you - to be clear are you saying I take the actual cash ticket prices and then convert that to avios for the BA claim part and then with MCOL I just use the cash? Sorry if this is clear somewhere, I have only seen illustrations of Mennens in cash, not Avios.
You should calculate this as if Avios was a currency, so you would initially end up with a claim for x Avios, based on the 75% figure plus y pounds sterling, based on Mennens. You present that to BA to pay. If, as I expect, BA declines, then you go to MCOL using just cash (that's all MCOL can work with), using the current Avios purchase rate in BA.com, so the cost of replacing that pool of Avios. Add that to the taxes, fees and charges cash amount. CEDR can use mixed Avios and cash as a claim, so you don't need to do that for them. MCOL would be better in some respects, given a choice, due to the strict timetable it imposes on BA.
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Old Feb 26, 21, 7:07 am
  #38  
 
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I know what the answer is likely to be but here goes.

Iíve just had my NQY flights cancelled 13 days before departure. Itís a domestic route and I canít see any reason other than commercial reasons as to why this was cancelled. They were also due to operate daily subsidised flights under a Government agreement. Any grounds for compensation?
An update on my claim.

I took it to the CEDR, and after a 3 month wait BA have once again come back claiming it was an Ďextraordinary circumstanceí. They claim that although no travel restrictions were in place at the time, the situation was extraordinary and so no compensation is due.

They also claim the flight was cancelled at 11:55 on 22nd October (14 days before - so no compensation), however I didnít get an email till 23rd October.
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Old Feb 27, 21, 9:34 am
  #39  
 
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Hello everyone,

I have 2 questions and I hope someone can help me out.

We bought 2x return J tickets to DXB on a 241 Amex voucher and with both legs online as they became available meaning we had to call in to have both bookings linked and obtain a refund of 50% Avios for the return. There were no First seats available at the time but we hoped they’d be released at a later date. The outbound seats were released a while later and we took advantage of those. Then the return seats were released but for a day later than booked so we decided to tag on the extra day and upgrade. In addition to the additional Avios at 50% due to the 241, we also paid a small amount of extra taxes and the change fee. A few months later, BA sent an email saying our seats had changed for the return leg and on checking MMB, I realised the aircraft had been changed from 4-class to 3-class. We decided to bide our time in case of a further equipment change but this didn’t happen so taking the published advice from you wonderful people on FT, we decided to make a claim for compensation after our flight had taken place. We have had a number of email exchanges with CR but they just kept fobbing us off although they did eventually refund the difference in Avios between F and J for one of us but with no explanation. Since then and after a few more exchanges and requesting a final decision letter so we can file a CEDR claim, they sent a sort of final decision letter which read:

”Thanks for contacting us again. We understand why you needed to do this.However, while I appreciate your request, you aren't entitled to compensation for the downgrade of your flight. We advised you in advance of this change, therefore on this occasion there is no compensation due. I'm sorry to disappoint you.

Once again, thanks for contacting us. We sorry for any inconvenience caused. If you require any further assistance with any other separate issues, please don't hesitate to contact us using the blue link below.”

My understanding is such that we are entitled to a refund of 75% of the Avios used for both of us for the return leg and that this should take into account the value of the 241 voucher (so 75% of 160,000) and possibly the modest difference in taxes that we had to pay if they were class rather than date related. However, I have 2 questions - are we also entitled to a refund of the change fee (remember we also changed the date of travel on the same call so I assume not) but also, does anyone have any experience of what we should select as the basis for the claim on the CEDR site as there’s no provision for involuntary downgrade with the closest match being cancellation and I don’t want to fall foul at the first hurdle!

If I may also rather cheekily ask about another matter whilst I’m here but mods, feel free to tell me to post elsewhere if needed, we had return flights to BKK booked with BA for next month, again using Avios and a 241 for 2 seats in J. Both flights were “linked” after a call to BA to get the Avios refund for the return as these were booked online at midnight rather than via a call centre. As most of you will know, BA pulled BKK a while ago so after some reluctant kerfuffle, BA switched us to QR which we were very excited about as all legs featured the Q-Suite which we hadn’t experienced before. Of course, this is all history now since travel became illegal during lockdown and until May at the earliest and as we weren’t expecting QR to cancel the flights as they seem to be operating normally currently, we called BA to cancel the flights a few days ago in case anyone else needed the reward seats. They charged us £140 for the privilege even though I explained that it’s illegal for us to travel overseas. I can understand that they should charge a change fee although I think it’s a bit mean given the circumstances but given that both the separate bookings had been “linked”, is this correct rather than just charging for the one “set” of flights or is it because despite this, they were both on separate PNR’s? Also and for what it’s worth, they refunded the full 90,000 for the peak return but only 50% of the off-peak outbound and at the end of this 2-hour call (yes really!), they eventually admitted it must be a system error but they can only refund what the system tells them to so now we’re having more kerfuffle to get the missing 37,500 Avios back!
Any help and advice for the CEDR and/or change fee question will be appreciated.

Many thanks
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Old Feb 27, 21, 10:04 am
  #40  
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For the BKK sector, if you didn't take the FTV option, you should be paying £35 per person per booking for a redeposit. I'm not quite sure how this gets to £140, unless it was 2 bookings of 2 people. I think it was pretty obvious what the risk was here, I've been shouting from the roof tops about this since August 2020. You may have some grounds to take this to MCOL, on the basis that being illegal means the contract you had with BA could be nullified, but that would be a hard sell for me to project to you.

For the downgrade, BA are right that no compensation is due, and that is a message hammered upthread and in previous years' threads. So if that's what you asked for, BA gave the correct reply. That is clearly different from the reimbursement calculation, which is the Mennens formula, to which you will find references in the Wiki and upthread. You will need to work out the taxes, fees and charges by splitting them according to the worked examples, but the Avios is a straightforward 75%. Before you go to CEDR you should have asked BA specifically for the Mennens formula reimbursement, or at least a back-of-the-envelope approximation, then it's easier for CEDR to proceed. So at this point you should work it out according to the linked posts, and write up CEDR with a clear breakdown. BA have another shot at rectifying the situation then, but just asking for compensation (since that's implied by your quote from BA) is in my view the wrong approach.
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Old Feb 27, 21, 11:31 am
  #41  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
For the BKK sector, if you didn't take the FTV option, you should be paying £35 per person per booking for a redeposit. I'm not quite sure how this gets to £140, unless it was 2 bookings of 2 people. I think it was pretty obvious what the risk was here, I've been shouting from the roof tops about this since August 2020. You may have some grounds to take this to MCOL, on the basis that being illegal means the contract you had with BA could be nullified, but that would be a hard sell for me to project to you.

For the downgrade, BA are right that no compensation is due, and that is a message hammered upthread and in previous years' threads. So if that's what you asked for, BA gave the correct reply. That is clearly different from the reimbursement calculation, which is the Mennens formula, to which you will find references in the Wiki and upthread. You will need to work out the taxes, fees and charges by splitting them according to the worked examples, but the Avios is a straightforward 75%. Before you go to CEDR you should have asked BA specifically for the Mennens formula reimbursement, or at least a back-of-the-envelope approximation, then it's easier for CEDR to proceed. So at this point you should work it out according to the linked posts, and write up CEDR with a clear breakdown. BA have another shot at rectifying the situation then, but just asking for compensation (since that's implied by your quote from BA) is in my view the wrong approach.
Thanks CWS - appreciated as always and perhaps compensation was the wrong word but point taken and Iíll write in again. Can you do me a favour please as I searched for the Mennenís formula before I posted my question after researching my issue but I just couldnít find it - would you happen to have a link please? Sorry!

Thanks also for answering my second question which again was appreciated. The £35 was per person outbound and per person inbound so £140 but my question was whether this was valid given that the 2 bookings were ďlinkedĒ, albeit on different booking refs as the return was added after the outbound was secured. From what youíre saying though, it sounds like I just have to accept this although if the bookings were linked, I do think itís a bit unfair.

Thanks again and enjoy whatís left of the weekend.
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Old Feb 27, 21, 11:39 am
  #42  
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Originally Posted by PlaneSpeaking View Post
Thanks also for answering my second question which again was appreciated. The £35 was per person outbound and per person inbound so £140 but my question was whether this was valid given that the 2 bookings were ďlinkedĒ, albeit on different booking refs as the return was added after the outbound was secured. From what youíre saying though, it sounds like I just have to accept this although if the bookings were linked, I do think itís a bit unfair.
Yes that would be valid. They remain as two separate bookings so it is £35 per person per booking.

There is an alternative approach when making 241 bookings which involves calling at midnight to add the return sector to the existing outbound booking. This would be one booking and therefore only incur a £70 total cancellation fee.
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Old Feb 27, 21, 11:45 am
  #43  
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Originally Posted by PlaneSpeaking View Post
Thanks CWS - appreciated as always and perhaps compensation was the wrong word but point taken and Iíll write in again. Can you do me a favour please as I searched for the Mennenís formula before I posted my question after researching my issue but I just couldnít find it - would you happen to have a link please? Sorry!
The direct link is here, but this is in this thread's wiki.
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/26864509-post636.html
To find the wiki, go to the top of the screen. At the top of this thread, and many other threads there is a wiki, directly above piost 1 The information on Mennens is linked from there. It's good to know how the wiki works since key knowledge, quick links, key facts are often shown there and it saves having to retype the same information over and over again.
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Old Feb 27, 21, 11:45 am
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by KARFA View Post
Yes that would be valid. They remain as two separate bookings so it is £35 per person per booking.

There is an alternative approach when making 241 bookings which involves calling at midnight to add the return sector to the existing outbound booking. This would be one booking and therefore only incur a £70 total cancellation fee.
Hi Karfa and thanks for your reply too. I thought calling the next day to have the bookings linked would have resulted in the same outcome as calling the centre at midnight to purchase the flights but lesson learned.

Many thanks to both of you.
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Old Feb 27, 21, 11:56 am
  #45  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
The direct link is here, but this is in this thread's wiki.
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/26864509-post636.html
To find the wiki, go to the top of the screen. At the top of this thread, and many other threads there is a wiki, directly above piost 1 The information on Mennens is linked from there. It's good to know how the wiki works since key knowledge, quick links, key facts are often shown there and it saves having to retype the same information over and over again.
Thanks CWS - thatís so useful but I was a bit puzzled as to why Iíd need to calculate the taxes if it was First to Club as the two were very similar with just an additional £15.20 to pay when we upgraded but Iíd imagine this was because it was a different day rather than taxes being higher for First as theyíre usually the same, or they always have been in my experience.
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