Last edit by: corporate-wage-slave
Link to the full original text of the regulations in PDF format
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
Brexit and Covid pointers: see post 8
Click here for last year's (2020) thread.
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
Brexit and Covid pointers: see post 8
Click here for last year's (2020) thread.
The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
#286
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Posts: 63,803
Does EC261 downgrade compensation apply when the downgrade is 6 months in advance? I had F ticket LHR-JNB that they have downgraded to J but they have not offered any compensation. I do see that EC261 applies for delays or cancellations only within a certain timeframe. is there a similar timeframe for downgrades? Or does it require BA to compensate me for downgrading from F->J 6 months in advance?
#287
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 134
Hi,
I have received email from BA refusing EU261 for delayed flight from Miami on the 10th of December. Took them just over 2 weeks since my claim, so quite happy with turnaround, not so much with the decision.
I thought it would be straightforward case - BA209 was 2 hours 24 minutes late arriving in MIA, which caused my flight (BA208) arriving 3 hours 12 minutes late at LHR. As a result I missed my connection (same PNR) to DUB, and was rebooked on later flight, arriving in DUB 4 hours and 55 minutes late.
BA admit 139 minutes of it was rotational delay within their control, but claim that it was 46 minutes of additional passenger checks at MIA outside their control which caused me to miss my connection, so no compensation is due.
Below is their reply:
I feel it's worth going to CEDR, as BA admit the majority of the delay was within their control, and I suspect at least part of those 46 minutes of additional passenger checks were because it was so late (I think it was one of the last flights that day - left gate at 0040).
I had a look through this year's thread, but didn't see similar situation, so wondered if those more experienced in this area thought it was worth pursuing with CEDR.
I think there might be some more people in similar situation, as I remember there being an announcement during the flight about connections at LHR, and I think they mentioned there were around 90 passengers connecting.
I have received email from BA refusing EU261 for delayed flight from Miami on the 10th of December. Took them just over 2 weeks since my claim, so quite happy with turnaround, not so much with the decision.
I thought it would be straightforward case - BA209 was 2 hours 24 minutes late arriving in MIA, which caused my flight (BA208) arriving 3 hours 12 minutes late at LHR. As a result I missed my connection (same PNR) to DUB, and was rebooked on later flight, arriving in DUB 4 hours and 55 minutes late.
BA admit 139 minutes of it was rotational delay within their control, but claim that it was 46 minutes of additional passenger checks at MIA outside their control which caused me to miss my connection, so no compensation is due.
Below is their reply:
Your claim for EU compensation has been refused because a portion of the delay was out of our control. Flight BA0208 was initially delayed for 139 minute due to the delayed arrival of BA0209. Flight BA0209 was delayed due to a towing issue and an issue with the upper deck door. This rotational delay is something that we are unable to defend, but this delay alone would not have caused you to miss your connecting flight.
Flight BA0208 was then delayed for a further 46 minutes due to additional passenger checks at the gate. This was out of our control and caused an unforeseen delay to your flight. It was this additional 46 minutes that caused you to miss your connecting flight.
Flight BA0208 was then delayed for a further 46 minutes due to additional passenger checks at the gate. This was out of our control and caused an unforeseen delay to your flight. It was this additional 46 minutes that caused you to miss your connecting flight.
I had a look through this year's thread, but didn't see similar situation, so wondered if those more experienced in this area thought it was worth pursuing with CEDR.
I think there might be some more people in similar situation, as I remember there being an announcement during the flight about connections at LHR, and I think they mentioned there were around 90 passengers connecting.
#288
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,612
Sounds like the usual BA nonsense to get out of paying. Passenger checks are part of the “normal” process of boarding.
I’d do a CEDR claim - you’ve nothing to lose.
I’d do a CEDR claim - you’ve nothing to lose.
#289
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: NCL
Programs: BA Exec Club: Gold HHons:Diamond FB:Ivory Accor:Plat Hertz: PC USA:GlobalEntry
Posts: 234
I'm in the middle of an EU261, doing the dance with BA trying to wheedle their way out of paying on a totally legitimate claim.
Each interaction with BA has them contradicting their own responses.
One of the first ones was that my delay of 3 hours was caused by wind shear at LHR which itself was caused by a technical issue on the aircraft - honestly you couldn't make it up!
Will report back in due course.
Each interaction with BA has them contradicting their own responses.
One of the first ones was that my delay of 3 hours was caused by wind shear at LHR which itself was caused by a technical issue on the aircraft - honestly you couldn't make it up!
Will report back in due course.
#290
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
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I feel it's worth going to CEDR, as BA admit the majority of the delay was within their control, and I suspect at least part of those 46 minutes of additional passenger checks were because it was so late (I think it was one of the last flights that day - left gate at 0040).
I had a look through this year's thread, but didn't see similar situation, so wondered if those more experienced in this area thought it was worth pursuing with CEDR.
I think there might be some more people in similar situation, as I remember there being an announcement during the flight about connections at LHR, and I think they mentioned there were around 90 passengers connecting.
I had a look through this year's thread, but didn't see similar situation, so wondered if those more experienced in this area thought it was worth pursuing with CEDR.
I think there might be some more people in similar situation, as I remember there being an announcement during the flight about connections at LHR, and I think they mentioned there were around 90 passengers connecting.
So yes, this needs to go to CEDR, with a short submission focusing on "inherent activities", COVID no longer being exceptional, all reasonable measures.
#291
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 134
Thanks very much for your help. I will go to CEDR.
#292
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 113
BA cancellation due to low demand
My friend was due to fly CPH-LHR on 14 March 2021, but that route was cancelled for 7-29 March, of which he was notified on 5 March. Before that it ran every Sunday, meaning they cancelled two flights. Clearly a voluntary business decision due to insufficient demand, but they denied EC261 compensation.
However, BA kept flying from ARN to LHR between 7-29 March, and Denmark didn't have tightened entry restrictions specifically between 7-29 March.
He's now gone to the Danish NEB (Trafikstyrelsen), who received a lengthy response from BA, essentiallyclaiming any and all cancellations having anything to do with the pandemic are exempt. This isn't true as he got compensation for a cancelled EW flight in July 2020, after the Kosovan NEB got involved.
The site prevents me from posting URLs, but if you Google "Is British Airways's reason for rejecting EC261 compensation legitimate?" on Travelstack (post by the concerned person), there's a link to BA's reply.
Trafikstyrelsen has now asked him to counter-argue BA's response, and I'd like to help him get as much tips as possible regarding what to say.
In particular I noticed the Flyertalk thread "EC261 on return leg - can I change the outbound?", with posts 9, 10 and 28 being interesting.
This is in line with the fact that he got compensation for the EW flight.
If anyone could give tips on what he should say to BA (via Trafikstyrelsen) to increase his chances of Trafikstyrelsen's assessment being in his favour, I'd be very grateful.
Especially the users Tobias-UK, corporate-wage-slave and KARFA
However, BA kept flying from ARN to LHR between 7-29 March, and Denmark didn't have tightened entry restrictions specifically between 7-29 March.
He's now gone to the Danish NEB (Trafikstyrelsen), who received a lengthy response from BA, essentiallyclaiming any and all cancellations having anything to do with the pandemic are exempt. This isn't true as he got compensation for a cancelled EW flight in July 2020, after the Kosovan NEB got involved.
The site prevents me from posting URLs, but if you Google "Is British Airways's reason for rejecting EC261 compensation legitimate?" on Travelstack (post by the concerned person), there's a link to BA's reply.
Trafikstyrelsen has now asked him to counter-argue BA's response, and I'd like to help him get as much tips as possible regarding what to say.
In particular I noticed the Flyertalk thread "EC261 on return leg - can I change the outbound?", with posts 9, 10 and 28 being interesting.
This is in line with the fact that he got compensation for the EW flight.
If anyone could give tips on what he should say to BA (via Trafikstyrelsen) to increase his chances of Trafikstyrelsen's assessment being in his favour, I'd be very grateful.
Especially the users Tobias-UK, corporate-wage-slave and KARFA
#293
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
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The BA response in question is here:
https://pastebin.com/pgJruTZm
In a UK context I think there would be two key counter-arguments. Firstly "all reasonable measures" - we can see all the stuff about minks, which was some months previously, but what did BA actually do to facilitate travel? We can see the economic arguments, but it's BA's decision to do this, and it's therefore up to BA to provide an alternative such as rebooking on to another airline(s). In other words, yes to extraordindary circumstances, but what happened to the entire canon of all reasonable measures? BA was free to operate a service, economically they decided not to do so. Fine, but then compensation is due. Second key argument is that when aspects of EC261 collide or are contradictory, we can fall back on the main reason for EC261, which is in the pre-amble, namely ensuring a high level of protection to passengers and with full account of general consumer protection. BA's reply does not meet that requirement.
https://pastebin.com/pgJruTZm
In a UK context I think there would be two key counter-arguments. Firstly "all reasonable measures" - we can see all the stuff about minks, which was some months previously, but what did BA actually do to facilitate travel? We can see the economic arguments, but it's BA's decision to do this, and it's therefore up to BA to provide an alternative such as rebooking on to another airline(s). In other words, yes to extraordindary circumstances, but what happened to the entire canon of all reasonable measures? BA was free to operate a service, economically they decided not to do so. Fine, but then compensation is due. Second key argument is that when aspects of EC261 collide or are contradictory, we can fall back on the main reason for EC261, which is in the pre-amble, namely ensuring a high level of protection to passengers and with full account of general consumer protection. BA's reply does not meet that requirement.
#294
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 113
Second key argument is that when aspects of EC261 collide or are contradictory, we can fall back on the main reason for EC261, which is in the pre-amble, namely ensuring a high level of protection to passengers and with full account of general consumer protection. BA's reply does not meet that requirement.
#295
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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Well there are dozens of examples in BA's text, but let me give one of many. In line 178 BA states that operating services with low passenger numbers would be "an intolerable sacrifice". Well that's over-egging the language, plus given the way that BA cancelled flights there came a point where passenger numbers were low due to BA's activities. Moreover the Regulation makes specific allowance for BA to cancel flights, indeed it offers a framework as to what is reasonable for this, but if they do so their passengers have to be properly looked after - either rebooked (why not?) and / or compensated (to comply with a Regulation intended to protect the public). Extraordinary circumstances is only part of the clause, reasonable measures are also in there, BA's response has 150 lines on the extraordinary and 8 on the reasonable measures (where they don't explain the reasonable measures). So a BA lawyer clearly has some arguments, I would suggest I too have some arguments, and when in doubt we go to the preamble to see the point of all of this.
#296
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: LAX
Posts: 301
Traditionally BA won't rebook on to AF even though it may be one way to avoid compensation. They would only rebook on to AF if it was a cancellation on the day or day before. If you leave more than 2 hours earlier then you get compensation but since you arrive presumably on time then the usual 600€ rate gets cut in half to 300€. If you can come up with another BA, IB or oneworld option that is more acceptable then by all means suggest it to BA, but you probably do yourself out of compensation if it is different to BA's suggested replacement.
#297
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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Join Date: Feb 2010
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Appreciate this. You're right, they wouldn't book on AF. In the end, they ended up putting me on an AA itinerary CDG-MIA-LAX that required a downgrade to economy MIA-LAX (itinerary was a paid J fare) arriving LAX about 3.5hrs later than our original arrival time. Am I correct in understanding I'd be due 600 EUR for the cancellation, 300 EUR for the delay, and also an unknown amount depending on their fare calculation for the downgrade?
#298
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: NCL
Programs: BA Exec Club: Gold HHons:Diamond FB:Ivory Accor:Plat Hertz: PC USA:GlobalEntry
Posts: 234
I was on BA0193 LHR-DFW on 1/12/21
The captain tried throttle up twice on take off, both times having to cut roll short after what he said was a false wind shear alarm.
The captain advised passengers that there was a fault with the plane's weather radar and engineering had been called to attend, so back we went to the stand.
An engineering team attended and fixed the issue, we departed around 3 hours late.
This caused a delay to my connection meaning a 24 hour delay to final destination - cue EC261.
BA have come back and stated:
Our engineering team have reviewed the data and confirmed there was nothing to suggest a technical defect on the aircraft.
The aircraft had to return to stand due to two genuine wind shear alerts.
Terminal 5 engineering also checked the Independent Surveillance System, which includes the weather radar, but no faults were found
Bearing in mind no other aircraft had to terminate their departure because of wind shear during this time I'm wondering if it's my word against theirs?
The captain tried throttle up twice on take off, both times having to cut roll short after what he said was a false wind shear alarm.
The captain advised passengers that there was a fault with the plane's weather radar and engineering had been called to attend, so back we went to the stand.
An engineering team attended and fixed the issue, we departed around 3 hours late.
This caused a delay to my connection meaning a 24 hour delay to final destination - cue EC261.
BA have come back and stated:
Our engineering team have reviewed the data and confirmed there was nothing to suggest a technical defect on the aircraft.
The aircraft had to return to stand due to two genuine wind shear alerts.
Terminal 5 engineering also checked the Independent Surveillance System, which includes the weather radar, but no faults were found
Bearing in mind no other aircraft had to terminate their departure because of wind shear during this time I'm wondering if it's my word against theirs?
#299
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Helvetia
Programs: AS; BA Silver; UA; HH Gold; Sprüngli Connaisseur
Posts: 2,912
I've got a case where I had a flight cancelled before 14 days. and I took the re-routing which caused me having to overnight at LHR. I then booked a hotel and spent the night in between flights in the hotel. I've now sent the bill to BA for expenses and they're trying to tell me that they're off the hook as the cancellation was more than 14 days before the flight. I'm in Switzerland, so I'm not sure what my options are. Any help would be appreciated.
#300
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,803
I've got a case where I had a flight cancelled before 14 days. and I took the re-routing which caused me having to overnight at LHR. I then booked a hotel and spent the night in between flights in the hotel. I've now sent the bill to BA for expenses and they're trying to tell me that they're off the hook as the cancellation was more than 14 days before the flight. I'm in Switzerland, so I'm not sure what my options are. Any help would be appreciated.