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The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

Old Jan 3, 2021, 2:19 am
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The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

Old Jul 9, 2022, 8:28 am
  #1756  
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Originally Posted by Simon Schus
interesting! BA autorebooked me onto another flight, as I had the email. Original flight arrival time was 6:55pm into LHR, and the rebooked flight was 10:10pm the same day. I didn’t want to risk that being cancelled too and so I asked for JER-LHR to be removed. I think that aligns with the idea you suggest that the claim might be in scope, right? I am unsure whether I want to pursue it or not either way, as the idea of going to CEDR or MCOL for this seems too fraught.
Well that's different (as a gentle aside, it's best to put these details into posts, since otherwise I'm typing up something way off beam). In that case you could get the EC261 compensation even if you hadn't travelled at all, it's way outside the parameters allowed for cancelled services. So you can push back on that, or ask for CEDR to take it on.
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Old Jul 9, 2022, 8:33 am
  #1757  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
Well that's different (as a gentle aside, it's best to put these details into posts, since otherwise I'm typing up something way off beam). In that case you could get the EC261 compensation even if you hadn't travelled at all, it's way outside the parameters allowed for cancelled services. So you can push back on that, or ask for CEDR to take it on.
sorry! I had assumed that the crux was whether or not the flight was considered a connecting journey or not- rather than the rebooking, and I was trying to avoid superfluous (but which turned out to be essential) detail!
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Old Jul 9, 2022, 8:38 am
  #1758  
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Originally Posted by Simon Schus
sorry! I had assumed that the crux was whether or not the flight was considered a connecting journey or not- rather than the rebooking, and I was trying to avoid superfluous detail!
The key compoonents are the timing of the cancellation - when it happened - then what wsa offered. So in your case, less than 7 days notice and a rebooking outside the permitted window. The Regulation doesn't require you to accept this offer, hence not travelling is OK for compensation, merely that BA's best alternative causes you disruption. Since you had, and would have had, an unchanged arrival time, then BA would cut the payment by 50%.
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Old Jul 9, 2022, 9:33 am
  #1759  
 
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Yep, we missed the curfew for LCY by 5 mins or so hence the diversion. Flight time was normal timing so no delays en route.
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Old Jul 9, 2022, 3:30 pm
  #1760  
 
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Hello again.

It appears that rail services to Gatwick station will now be affected if the ongoing dispute leads to another strike.

(http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/gtr-worke...-rail-dispute/)

Do enough of BA's LGW staff rely on the railway for short-notice flight cancellations to be likely, were a rail strike to happen? If so, would it constitute an extraordinary circumstance as per EU261?
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Old Jul 9, 2022, 6:33 pm
  #1761  
 
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When starting a new claim, it gives me the option to log on to my BAEC account.

Since the flights that I'm making a claim against were credited to my AA FFN, is there any advantage (or disadvantage) to logging into my account before proceeding?
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Old Jul 10, 2022, 6:06 am
  #1762  
 
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Hi everyone,

I've read all the various EC261 parts, and I think I'm eligible, but just wanted to see what the thoughts of the group are as at the moment BA seem to think otherwise.

I was due to fly GVA -> LHR on the 30th June on BA723 but the flight was cancelled about 8 hour prior to departure. Logged an EC261 claim a week or so ago and have just heard back that my claim has been denied as the cancellation was due to "Airspace Restrictions", which I'm not entirely sure I believe or at the very least has been twisted to try and avoid repayment..

Looking on FR24 it looks like the inbound plane from the night before never made it and was cancelled too - BA738 on 29 June due to be operated by G-EUOG. Plane landed from the flight before slightly delayed (20:31 instead of 19:50) but I would've thought still enough time to turn to make a (all be it delayed) GVA departure? So this to me seems to be the reason the BA723 was cancelled - the plane not being there! No GVA airspace restrictions in the morning as plenty of flight arriving and departing. The flight after ours to LHR was cancelled too, the BA727.

I was eventually put on the BA flight into LCY, but arrived at LCY well after 2 hours after the original scheduled arrival time, and that doesn't take into account getting back across to LHR!

I notice the LHR -> LYS flight left LHR at 23:30, so surely it can't be due to a noise curfew, airspace restriction or similar?

I checked for a cancellation code at the time on EF but couldn't see one and stupidly didn't check back as I didn't realise they disappeared after 48 hours or so!

I don't think it's unreasonable for me to be expecting the full 250 EUR amount, but what's the general FT consensus?

Thanks everyone as always!
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Old Jul 10, 2022, 6:16 am
  #1763  
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Originally Posted by flyer_tom
Looking on FR24 it looks like the inbound plane from the night before never made it and was cancelled too - BA738 on 29 June due to be operated by G-EUOG. Plane landed from the flight before slightly delayed (20:31 instead of 19:50) but I would've thought still enough time to turn to make a (all be it delayed) GVA departure? So this to me seems to be the reason the BA723 was cancelled - the plane not being there! No GVA airspace restrictions in the morning as plenty of flight arriving and departing. The flight after ours to LHR was cancelled too, the BA727.
There was something oif a mini meltdown at LHR on the afternoon of 30 June, see the dedicated thread for that, so I think you would have been caught in that. You can either take the matter to CEDR if you get confirmation from BA that they won't change their position, or you can go MCOL. In the case of CEDR, BA has to prove their case, MCOL is more balanced in that respect, but I can't see BA defending a 250€ claim if they are up against plausible arguments.
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Old Jul 10, 2022, 6:19 am
  #1764  
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Originally Posted by econ
When starting a new claim, it gives me the option to log on to my BAEC account.

Since the flights that I'm making a claim against were credited to my AA FFN, is there any advantage (or disadvantage) to logging into my account before proceeding?
You best not to log in. Logging in does save some typing but you would be best off putting any details like that later on. But I don't think it makes a big difference overall. Some people have struggled with the cookie set up for this area, so for unrelated reasons they are best off not using the BAEC login, and to consider using Incognito.
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Old Jul 10, 2022, 6:01 pm
  #1765  
 
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Hi all,

It is a day of 'wondering about EC261' from me. I had BA1386 (LHR-MAN) flight on 9th July 2020 cancelled 13 days beforehand, and the replacement flights were more than 3 hours later and were not suitable so I cancelled the booking. I had my EC261 claim rejected by BA on the basis that: "The Flight was cancelled as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic.". I went to CEDR, and they rejected it too; during the CEDR process, BA provided evidence showing low flight loads on the LHR-MAN route, but also stated that there were no public health measures in place that prohibited the flight from operating (it was a domestic flight)

Is it worth going to MCOL here? I was less annoyed about the flight running, and more annoyed that they cancelled the flight with less than 14 days notice (they cancelled it with 13 days notice).The European Commission states the following about cancellations during COVID but I just don't think it is fulfilled here:

Article 5(3) waives the right to compensation on condition that the cancellation in question “is caused” by extraordinary circumstances, which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.

This condition should be considered fulfilled, where public authorities either outright prohibit certain flights or ban the movement of persons in a manner that excludes, de facto, the flight in question to be operated.

This condition may also be fulfilled, where the flight cancellation occurs in circumstances where the corresponding movement of persons is not entirely prohibited, but limited to persons benefitting from derogations (for example nationals or residents of the state concerned).

Where no such person would take a given flight, the latter would remain empty if not cancelled. In such situations, it may be legitimate for a carrier not to wait until very late, but to cancel the flight in good time (and even without being certain about the rights of the various passengers to travel at all), in order for appropriate organisational measures to be taken, including in terms of care for passengers owed by the carrier. In cases of the kind, and depending on the circumstances, a cancellation may still be viewed as “caused” by the measure taken by the public authorities. Again, depending on the circumstances, this may also be the case in respect of flights in the direction opposite to the flights directly concerned by the ban on the movement of persons.

Where the airline decides to cancel a flight and shows that this decision was justified on grounds of protecting the health of the crew, such cancellation should also be considered as “caused” by extraordinary circumstances.

The above considerations are not and cannot be exhaustive in that other specific circumstances in relation to Covid-19 may also fall under the ambit of Article 5(3).

Source: European Commission: "Interpretative Guidelines on EU passenger rights regulations in the context of the developing situation with Covid-19." (C(2020) 1830 final)
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Old Jul 10, 2022, 6:10 pm
  #1766  
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I think you will struggle with a flight which took place on 9 July 2020, that was pretty much just as we were coming out of the first lockdown - in fact I think the first day we were allowed to leave home for any reason and travel was 4 July.

I must say BA providing evidence of low loads does seem to contradict an argument that the cancellation wasn't due to commercial reasons.
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Old Jul 11, 2022, 3:02 am
  #1767  
 
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Originally Posted by KARFA
I think you will struggle with a flight which took place on 9 July 2020, that was pretty much just as we were coming out of the first lockdown - in fact I think the first day we were allowed to leave home for any reason and travel was 4 July.

I must say BA providing evidence of low loads does seem to contradict an argument that the cancellation wasn't due to commercial reasons.
An anecdote that might help. We travelled to Venice on 9th July. First wing check in. There were about 15 people on the plane. We were in an ET exit row seat and were brought champagne to celebrate, the crew (and us) were delighted to be flying again. So low load for sure but BA were running short haul services that date.
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Old Jul 11, 2022, 3:22 am
  #1768  
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Send in a dispute on CEDR. Basically they are agreeing with BA, that loads were too low? Which seems like a commercial decision to me?

Here the entire text? What would the easiest next steps be, as I don't really agree with this?
Submit to one of the commercial claim people?

Agreed facts • The customer and one other on the same booking were booked on the Flight and the Flight was cancelled. • Issues in dispute • The customer claims a total of 1,040.00 for the cancellation of the Flight. • The company submits that the Flight was cancelled due to exceptional circumstances such that it has no obligation to pay compensation. Decision making principles • In order to succeed in a claim against the company, the customer must prove on a balance of probabilities that they are owed compensation under the Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 (referred to in this decision as “the APR Regulations”). • The company will not have to pay compensation where it can prove that a delay or cancellation was caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. • I have carefully considered all of the issues raised and the documents provided. Both the customer and the company should be reassured that if I have not referred to a particular issue or document, this does not mean that I have not considered it in reaching my decision. Reasons for decision 1. The customer and one other passenger were booked on the Flight. The company asserts that it cancelled the Flight on the 23rd December 2021, however the customer asserts that notification of the cancellation was not given until the day of the Flight. 2. Irrespective of whether the customer was notified on the 23rd December 2021 or on the date of the Flight, the notification to the customer was fewer than fourteen days prior to the Flight and as such within the parameters under which compensation may be payable. 3. The issue to determine, therefore, is whether the cancellation of the Flight was an “extraordinary circumstance as per Article 5 (3) of the APR Regulations. 4. The APR Regulations require that passengers whose flights are cancelled less than two weeks prior to the scheduled departure are entitled to compensation under Article 7 of the Regulation unless the cancellation was caused by “extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken” (Article 5(3)). 5. The company, in its defence, contends that the cancellation was caused by the global Covid pandemic and that this constituted ‘extraordinary circumstances’. The company further contends that there were no measures that it could reasonably have taken to prevent the cancellation. 6. There are therefore three issues to consider. What caused the Flight to be cancelled? Was the event that caused the delay extraordinary circumstances? If so, did the company take all reasonable measures to prevent the cancellation and fulfil its obligations under the Regulations? 7. I will firstly address the cause of the cancellation. The company has provided evidence that seeks to demonstrate that the restrictions on the route of the Flight were Covid-related and that this resulted in the cancellation of the Flight. 8. In its evidence the company highlights the reduction in the number of flights operated on the route of the Flight during the day of the Flight and advises that only four of the scheduled six flights were operational. 9. The company further compares the four operational flights of the 3rd January 2022 with the seventeen operational flights that took place between London and Amsterdam on the 3rd of January 2019 and 2020 respectively. 10. The company has also evidenced the restrictions placed upon travel by the governments of the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, including a requirement to quarantine, applicable at the date of the Flight. 11. The customer has asserted that the company initially advised that the cancellation of the Flight was due to the actions of Air Traffic Control. The company has not relied upon this defence and on the basis that cancellations arising from the actions of Air Traffic Control are generally accepted to be beyond the control of the airline and therefore an ‘extraordinary circumstance’ I do not consider that this is relevant to determining the validity of the customer’s claim. 12. On the balance of probabilities and upon the evidence provided I consider that the company cancelled the Flight on the basis of a reduced demand arising from Covid-related advice and restrictions 13. It is the contention of the company that Covid-related cancellations are considered to be ‘extraordinary circumstances’ and as such no compensation is due. 14. The company has referred to EC guidelines relating to Covid and highlighted section 3.4 which states that “The Commission considers that, where public authorities take measures intended to contain the Covid-19 pandemic, such measures are by their nature and origin not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of carriers and are outside their actual control.” 15. The company further notes the guidance in relation to Article 5(3) where movement is limited and highlights that,”This condition may also be fulfilled, where the flight cancellation occurs in circumstances where the corresponding movement of persons is not entirely prohibited, but limited to persons benefitting from derogations (for example nationals or residents of the state concerned).” 16. I have also considered the guidance issued by the Civil Aviation Authority in respect of Covid which states “’Where the Government is advising against travel to a destination, we consider that this would be viewed as an 'extraordinary circumstance' and compensation would not be payable. Cancellations related to coronavirus in other circumstances (e.g. where there is no advice against travel) would need to be considered on their merits and facts. However, decisions by authorities to close airspace, restrict airline operations or place restrictions on passengers are likely to be an extraordinary circumstance. Cancellations due to the economic and environmental consequences of operating flights with only a few passengers on-board may also be considered to be an extraordinary circumstance, for example where the imposition of quarantine requirements significantly impacts demand’. 17. In respect of the advice from the CAA I note the wording relating to ‘Cancellations due to the economic and environmental consequences of operating flights with only a few passengers onboard may also be considered to be an extraordinary circumstance, for example where the imposition of quarantine requirements significantly impacts demand’. 18. The company has provided evidence that the quantity of flights had reduced from seventeen per day for that day in 2019 and 2020 to only six flights planned for the day of the Flight of which only four flights operated. The company has further evidenced that in 2019, 1,520 passengers traveled between London and AMS (61% capacity), whilst in 2020, 1,626 passengers travelled. 19. The company has evidenced that only 144 passengers were booked for the six flights scheduled for the day of the Flight which equated to 19% of capacity. 20. I consider that a reduction in passenger numbers from 1,520/1,626 to 144 constitutes a significant reduction in demand and, as such, is in accordance with the advice provided by the CAA as to whether the circumstances may be considered ‘extraordinary’. 21. In circumstances that may constitute ‘extraordinary circumstances’ there is still an obligation on the company to take all reasonable measures to avoid cancellation. 22. In considering whether or not the company would have taken all reasonable measures to avoid the cancellation I am guided by the case of Eglitis v Latvijas Republikas Ekonomikas Ministrija, a case involving a cancelled flight where it was held that while Article 5(3) includes a provision which requires carriers to use all reasonable measures to avoid the cancellation of flights, that provision is limited to ensure that it ‘does not result in the air carrier being led to make intolerable sacrifices in the light of the capacities of its undertaking at the relevant time’. 23. In this instance the company has provided information relating to specific passenger numbers and available capacity on the route of the Flight for the day of the Flight to justify an economic cancellation of two of the scheduled flights for that day, including the Flight. 24. On the basis of the evidence provided and on the balance of probabilities I therefore find that company has established that the operation of the Flight in these circumstances would constitute the ‘intolerable sacrifice’ necessary to demonstrate that all reasonable measures had been taken to avoid a cancellation when contending that reduced demand shall be considered to be an ‘extraordinary circumstance’. 25. As such, the company defence succeeds, and the customer’s claim fails.

Last edited by thomas199023; Jul 11, 2022 at 3:30 am
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Old Jul 11, 2022, 4:03 am
  #1769  
 
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Originally Posted by ermis177
Received my compensation today and a few hours after a Well be in touch email
Just got another email from BA Thank you for bearing with us. I mean I am all about customer services but I have received 2 emails after I got my compensation. Hopefully they will stop emailing me soon, or at least give me another 350
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Old Jul 11, 2022, 4:09 am
  #1770  
 
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Just over a month ago, I got a response from BA indicating that they would provide me a partial refund for the middle seat in CE bring occupied (back in Feb). They also said they'd be in touch soon.

Naturally nothing has been heard since, which I am assuming is because someone has to go and calculate the refund manually. I get this, but at the same time the complaint was initially raised more than 4 months ago. At this stage, is the only option to wait, or is it worth taking to MCOL given the amount of time it's taking. I am not sure whether the current state of play is really a dispute, given they have agreed to partially refund me. Of course, it might become one again if they try and fob me off with 25 or something!

Any thoughts? I imagine contacting them will be pointless. Wish they'd just bunged me some avios tbh.
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