Tussis

Hi All,
I ask this with the usual caveat that I realize travel and aircraft are still quite possibly going to change again, but I had the following situation and was hoping for some community guidance —

I have a BA flight booked via an Alaska award, flying SEA - LHR - MLE all in F (booked last summer). A few months ago the LHR-MLE leg had an apparent aircraft change, and F was no longer available hence a seeming automatic downgrade to J. This was confirmed when attempting a dummy cash booking that F was not available, but thankfully the flight wasn’t actually cancelled.

However recently it must have changed once again, as it’s now showing the new 77H configuration it would appear with availability in F.

When I reached out to You First a few months ago, they said ‘likely they would move us back to First if it ever became available’; now they’re saying ‘it’s not on us, it’s on Alaska.’ My query is that BA didn’t have a problem not going through Alaska to downgrade us, so why shouldn’t BA be able to re-upgrade us?

So I definitely will involve Alaska, but who do I really press on to resolve this and to get us back into first?
If they (BA) ultimately refuses, would this be a Reg 261 violation?

Thanks everyone for your time!

corporate-wage-slave

It is for AS to resolve since they are your travel agents in this scenario. You ticket will need to be reissued and AS are the people who do that. I don't know enough about AS' systems, but my usual advice to travellers who have been downgraded due to equipment change that it's best to hold off accepting changes, since you never know if it will go back to the original cabin. Now it could be that AS reissued the tickets automatically, or maybe you rang up and that triggered it. But if you didn't do this, it's possible your tickets are still pointing to the First cabin. In which case it could be very easy for AS to revalidate the tickets. But in any event, at this point all paths lead to Alaska. If you do end up downgraded then you are entitled to the reimbursement mechanism of EC261, lovingly known in these parts as the Mennens formula. You will find this in the EC261 thread in this forum, which is part of the dashboard - the wiki has the links.

megaloman

In order to trigger the EC261/2004 compensation you need to have a valid ticket, so you need to talk to Alaska to have you re-confirmed in F. At the moment, as CWS has pointed out, you either have ticket re-issued in J (so no grounds for compensation from BA) or need the re-confirmation back into F.

Tussis

Thank you both very much for your time and responses.

So to clarify, Alaska automatically re-booked me into J, and I didn't select or confirm anything. Paraphrasing, it was something like 'your originally booked class is no longer available, so we re-booked you in the closest available'. Alaska is giving some hard-line response that 'during these COVID times, there is no way for us to contact partner airlines to request award space be re-opened, it's on British Airways.'

I browsed the EC261 one thread (and it's definitely dense, so it's very possible I'm misunderstanding small details), but I would still wonder how an involuntary downgrade due to an aircraft change wouldn't qualify?

Thanks again all for your opinions/input!

megaloman

In order to have grounds to claim EC261/2004 for the downgrade from F to J, you need to hold a valid ticket in F prior to the departure. Your current ticket is in J, so I don't see how BA would be on the hook to pay you any compensation for the downgrade.

Have Alaska refunded you the difference in miles between F and J tickets?

corporate-wage-slave

If you held a confirmed booking in First, documented by an email (perhaps an e-ticket), and you are placed by the operating airline in Club, then Mennens applies, it's strict liability. BA is the operating airline, but you normally have to work with your travel agent, in this case AS, at least to begin with. You can't start this process until the completion of travel. If Avios availability comes up then of course you can just rebook.

cauchy

Ultimately every person who is downgraded from First goes from having a valid ticket in F to a current ticket in J (or W or Y) so I'm not sure why this would be a reason for BA to evade liability.

As pointed out above, the downgrade payout is strict liability, so even if there are wholly exceptional circumstances the airline still needs to pay.

Tussis

I sincerely appreciate everyone and their responses, notably corporate-wage-slave for his/her work on the EC261 threads, they're incredible.
So to take it to the next level for calculations (I realize this is all a bit of a mental exercise for now, but just for planning purposes):

AS award is 60k points for US - Europe in J; 70K in F
AS award is 70k points for US - Maldives in J; 80K in F
Taxes and Fees 70$; Carrier imposed surcharges $950 (USD)

Current cash ticket for the SEA-LHR-MLE is $10500 in J; $12400(USD) in F
Current cash for just the LHR-MLE leg is Ł2500(GBP) in J; Ł6100(GBP) in F

Assuming the SEA - LHR goes just fine in F, but the LHR-MLE leg stays in J , that's 52% of the trip that was affected by the downgrade, and it would be a Tier 3 (75%) infraction. It sounds like BA could go the all cash route, versus a points+fees reimbursement.
My best guess math is, with just the cash option, would be the ($12400 - 10500) * (52%) * (75%) = $740 per ticket. If points, perhaps at best it would be the 10,000 points difference (F to J, then 52% pro-rated * 75%) = 3900pt + the surcharge component?

Would anyone that's otherwise extremely bored perhaps mind adding their thoughts on the calculation component?

corporate-wage-slave

It's too late in the evening for me to focus on sums like that, but what I can say is that you have to ignore the revenue fare, that's not relevant to your trip. You do the calculations purely on what you actually paid, so do a calculation first on the Points (that's easy) then divide up the cash component between necessary taxes and everything else. Remove whatever AS refunds / refunded to you. You then end up with a reimbursement for Points, and a cash reimbursement. If it gets to court, then you can use the current purchase rate for Points to give a dollar total, but only at that stage. AS, as BA's agent, is supposed to refund you Points and cash in line with Mennens.

Jermyn

I'm in the same situation as the OP.

Booked MLE-LHR/ 6 month stopover/ LHR-MEX for 80k AS miles in BA F
The first segment was downgraded to J and the aircraft is now back to the original 77H.

I've been in this situation before with a downgraded AA miles booking on CX F, due to a change of aircraft

When CX reinstated a 4 class aircraft on the HKG-LHR route I had to get the Oneworld alliance liaison involved.
AA had tried calling CX directly but got nowhere but the alliance liaison was able to mediate and get me put back into F.

It took a while but it is doable.

Currently AS have messaged BA directly and I've been told that BA and AA are the two airlines co-operating the most in these circumstances.
I've been told to expect an answer back in 5 business days...

megaloman

I stand corrected. If it happened to me, I would accept the downgrade, take the partial refund and forget about it since it happened ahead of time.

Im a new user

LHR-MLE is 5,306 miles and SEA-LHR-MLE is 10,106 miles. 5306 is approximately 52% of 10106.

You paid 70,000 AS points, so BA should refund 75% of 52% of 70,000 AS points, or 27,300 points. I don't know how it works when an airline has to refund a partner airline's points.

You paid $950 in carrier-imposed surcharges, so BA should refund 75% of 52% of $950, or $370.50.

Taxes and fees stay the same, assuming that F and J have the same taxes and fees.

Confus

BA would not see, know or care the number of AS miles you paid for a ticket. Indeed the only thing they would see is the money they are passed by AS in order to fly you, and I doubt they’d want to release that publicly (by default) by using it in such a calculation. I don’t doubt that there must be some kind of reimbursement, but I don’t think there’s any case notes on how it works in the case of a partner redemption. Certainly don’t recall it having passed through a court able to pronounce formal judgment anyway.