Have BA changed the 'Significant Change' from 2hrs to 4hrs
Hi,
Just got off the phone with BA as an outbound flight had been moved by 1hr55 and a return by 3hr40 and wanted to cancel as there was no other flight available and the earlier flight meant no way to connect. I was informed that recently BA changed significant to mean 4 hours rather than 2 hours and as such I would have to pay a cancellation fee (Avios Ticket). I suggested surely the terms of when I booked should be applied but told that it is when the flight is rather than booking date they use to decide if 2 hours or 4 hours applies! They have sent it away to be queried but it got me thinking if it was a non refundable cash ticket 4 hours really makes a lot of options I may consider non starters for me and find it an draconian change to the rules if indeed accurate. Just wondered if I had missed this update and if others had been advised the same? |
The change to 4 hours was reported a couple of weeks ago here:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32709124-post4001.html |
I missed that as well. and I am pleased that a separate thread has been launched as I think that this was a bit buried last time.
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I think how significant 2 or 4 hours is depends on the traveller and is not really specifically for BA to set. If a 2 hour change means you cannot make a meeting then even that is significant.
In the past, I have shifted flights to months later due to a 1:30 change that clearly no longer served my purpose. That is almost certainly even easier to justify with 4 hours. I would stick to your guns and insist on a free change or cancellation. In case BA doesn't play ball, couldn't you request an FTV (Future Travel Voucher) under the COVID book with confidence scheme and redeem that for another ticket at a later date? |
Originally Posted by Tafflyer
(Post 32763416)
I think how significant 2 or 4 hours is depends on the traveller and is not really specifically for BA to set. If a 2 hour change means you cannot make a meeting then even that is significant.
In the past, I have shifted flights to months later due to a 1:30 change that clearly no longer served my purpose. That is almost certainly even easier to justify with 4 hours. I would stick to your guns and insist on a free change or cancellation. In case BA doesn't play ball, couldn't you request an FTV (Future Travel Voucher) under the COVID book with confidence scheme and redeem that for another ticket at a later date? The voucher gives an easy way out and to be honest for Avios tickets where they are easy to cancel its not an issue, but once the Covid vouchers don't exist any more to me the risk of making a revenue booking is to great based on BA's new rules for many of the trips I would usually make. |
You bought your ticket under specific conditions, and you agreed to specific terms. If you purchased before the 4 hour rule went into effect, then you are entitled to a 2-hour rule, irrespective of the departure date.
Not an attorney, but that’s what I was told. |
3h40m must surely qualify as a cancellation in conjunction with an offer of an alternative flight under EC261/04. So you should be able to get a full refund.
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Originally Posted by smartytravel
(Post 32763613)
You bought your ticket under specific conditions, and you agreed to specific terms. If you purchased before the 4 hour rule went into effect, then you are entitled to a 2-hour rule, irrespective of the departure date.
Not an attorney, but that’s what I was told.
Originally Posted by funkydrummer
(Post 32763676)
3h40m must surely qualify as a cancellation in conjunction with an offer of an alternative flight under EC261/04. So you should be able to get a full refund.
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Originally Posted by KARFA
(Post 32763686)
under the scenario outlined by the OP, EC261 doesn’t allow for a full refund.
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BA well aware of those few jurisdictions where there is precedential authority overriding policy.
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Originally Posted by funkydrummer
(Post 32763710)
Well, I don't know what is the itinerary and therefore don't know what is the jurisdiction. But courts in more than one European country have ruled, for example, that a schedule change of as little as 30 min ahead of the departure time booked qualifies as a cancellation. Of course, there is no right to compensation unless you were notified short-term. But you should have the right to choose between reimbursement, re-routing at the earliest opportunity, and re-routing at a later date of your convenience.
EDIT: just to add I only ask since I have retiming of my own come through today of about 3hrs too and a refund would be preferable |
I do think that BA risk shooting themselves in the foot with changes like this and the other thread about the tightening of BA holidays policies in another thread.
BA need to build the confidence of travellers to travel - particularly leisure which is more directly in consumers hands and is discretionary. I have taken a single flight since March, and a last minute change because of changes to travel corridors was handled well (phone hold times aside due to crap IT). Confidence that flexibility to deal with changing situations over the next year is what I need to be convinced to book, and I’m sure it is the same for many others. I get the airline is in a very difficult position. But I don’t think this flexibility is being particularly abused and these type of changes undermine the confidence BA need to build right now. |
Article 6 Delay 1. When an operating air carrier reasonably expects a flight to be delayed beyond its scheduled time of departure: [...] passengers shall be offered by the operating air carrier: [...] (iii) when the delay is at least five hours, the assistance specified in Article 8(1)(a). |
Originally Posted by Im a new user
(Post 32763822)
The right to a refund is "the assistance specified in Article 8(1)(a)" so it seems that BA won't have to refund you unless the delay is at least five hours. If BA offers a refund already after four hours, BA actually offers more than what is required.
For advanced notice retiming of a flight like the OP received (and like I have received today for a November booking) the scheduled departure time has been changed. It’s a change of the scheduled departure time rather than a delay to the scheduled departure time. |
Originally Posted by KARFA
(Post 32763754)
could you point to the court rulings and where it says that in EC261 please?
EDIT: just to add I only ask since I have retiming of my own come through today of about 3hrs too and a refund would be preferable It has been left to the courts to decide which schedule changes are to be treated analogously to a cancellation (article 5 covers the latter). My understanding is that a substantial schedule change gives you the rights of article 8 (reimbursement and, if applicable, return to point of origin, re-routing at earliest opportunity, or re-routing at the convenience of the pax) in several countries to which EC261 applies. And article 5 of EC261 gives an orientation as to what is substantial, which is then extrapolated outside the realm of compensation. So some federal courts have ruled that, for example, a -2h schedule change you were informed about, say, 21 days before departure, gives you the right to reimbursement. (Obv, no compensation as you were informed 14+ days in advance.) EDIT: I guess it's a little more than "my understanding is". I've won cases vs. several airlines in this regard using a lawyer from Berlin. Like, LH, FR, or IB refusing to rebook on another carrier after a schedule change. So I requested a rebooking on another carrier, setting a time limit. They usually don't react or offer an unacceptable change on their own metal. You have to rebook on your own dime and get your money back in court. |
Originally Posted by funkydrummer
(Post 32763919)
IANAL. EC261 is a HUGE mess. For instance, the law is NOT explicitly saying that a delay of 3+ hours (not caused by extraordinary circumstances) entitles you to compensation. Instead, it was an ECJ ruling from 2009 (?) which declared that such a delay is equivalent to a cancellation with regards to compensation. Even more so, the regulation doesn't even define what is an "extraordinary circumstance", courts had to define that, too. Those are just two examples of the vast incompleteness of that regulation.
It has been left to the courts to decide which schedule changes are to be treated analogously to a cancellation (article 5 covers the latter). My understanding is that a substantial schedule change gives you the rights of article 8 (reimbursement and, if applicable, return to point of origin, re-routing at earliest opportunity, or re-routing at the convenience of the pax) in several countries to which EC261 applies. And article 5 of EC261 gives an orientation as to what is substantial, which is then extrapolated outside the realm of compensation. So some federal courts have ruled that, for example, a -2h schedule change you were informed about, say, 21 days before departure, gives you the right to reimbursement. (Obv, no compensation as you were informed 14+ days in advance.) EDIT: I guess it's a little more than "my understanding is". I've won cases vs. several airlines in this regard using a lawyer from Berlin. Like, LH, FR, or IB refusing to rebook on another carrier after a schedule change. So I requested a rebooking on another carrier, setting a time limit. They usually don't react or offer an unacceptable change on their own metal. You have to rebook on your own dime and get your money back in court. This won't get easier with the passage of time. The UK has adopted the Regulation into its domestic law and "it" will thus survive Brexit. But, once the UK has exited, ECJ precedent won't bind the UK courts. Thus, should the ECJ choose, once again, to define what is an "extraordinary circunmstance," UK courts might well not find that persuasive. |
Originally Posted by KARFA
(Post 32763754)
could you point to the court rulings and where it says that in EC261 please?
EDIT: just to add I only ask since I have retiming of my own come through today of about 3hrs too and a refund would be preferable Just read this article on MSE about this very subject, and it seems that it's up to the airline what is a significant change. My mild understanding of contract / consumer law is you are bound by / agree to the T&Cs / CoC in force when you've booked as long as they are not deemed unfair. They shouldn't be able to move the goalposts in their favour beyond that. FWIW I had a flight re-timed 1:50 earlier some time ago & a couple of weeks back some 48 hours out I rang the gold line and asked them if a free change was possible onto another flight 20 minutes later than time of the original flight. They obliged. { The latter flight was more expensive to change to online. } |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 32764116)
But, that is the nature of law in most Rule of Law nations. Legislatures enact law, courts interpret those laws and the decisions of the courts, at least at sufficiently high enough levels, are precedential.
This won't get easier with the passage of time. The UK has adopted the Regulation into its domestic law and "it" will thus survive Brexit. But, once the UK has exited, ECJ precedent won't bind the UK courts. Thus, should the ECJ choose, once again, to define what is an "extraordinary circunmstance," UK courts might well not find that persuasive. We don't know what kind of ticket the OP holds. But if it's an itinerary UK-EU, and in light of the fact that the inbound was changed by by substantially more, it might be legally more promising to force BA to a full refund based on the change to the inbound. I admit this is a purely academic discussion at this point. It seems OP is located in the UK. And few lawyers from the UK will take on a case which requires them to work with a legal jurisdiction of, say, Spain because the inbound is MAD-LHR. So for all practical purposes, the better option is to pay the relatively low fee for cancelling an avios booking. |
Originally Posted by funkydrummer
(Post 32764906)
For EC261, what matters is the departure airport.
We don't know what kind of ticket the OP holds. But if it's an itinerary UK-EU, and in light of the fact that the inbound was changed by by substantially more, it might be legally more promising to force BA to a full refund based on the change to the inbound. I admit this is a purely academic discussion at this point. It seems OP is located in the UK. And few lawyers from the UK will take on a case which requires them to work with a legal jurisdiction of, say, Spain because the inbound is MAD-LHR. So for all practical purposes, the better option is to pay the relatively low fee for cancelling an avios booking. |
4 hours is a very long requirement.
I’ve had a schedule change to a domestic flight meaning I arrive on a long haul flight at 1525, and my connection which did leave at 1640 now leaves at 2050. Fortunately it’s 10 minutes over the 4 hours so I could cancel but if it had been 10 minutes less, I’m sure some would consider arriving at 10pm to be a significant change from arriving at 6.05pm, particularly if onward car or public transport travel was required at the destination. |
Particularly embarrassing for BA is the fact that a certain pink low cost carrier allows refunds for any and all schedule changes
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For those of us who are daytrippers or who do short in and outs of London, a 4 hour change is significant. Imagine a business traveler ex-FRA or ZRH on the early 7am flight to LON, then on the evening 5-7pm flight back - a 4 hour change makes the trip almost unfeasible. I cannot imagine that the business community would be very forgiving when indeed they start to travel again in large volumes compared to now. It could be a temporary change in the current circumstances, but will BA will find themselves uncompetitive in future.
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It could be even worse...! I was looking at the BA Holiday T&Cs (https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...and-conditions) and they seem to define "significant change" as 12 hours or more:
8.3. We are only liable to you for cancellations or significant changes to your booking by us. A significant change is one that we make to your booking before your departure that affects an essential term of your contract. Examples of a significant change includes changes by us to: your destination area; your booked accommodation to that of an alternative property of a lower rating; your departure times or accommodation occupancy periods by more than 12 hours. |
Originally Posted by lewincg
(Post 32768108)
It could be even worse...! I was looking at the BA Holiday T&Cs (https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...and-conditions) and they seem to define "significant change" as 12 hours or more:
Likely this wouldn't stand up if taken to court. I'd just raise a dispute on the credit card. |
Originally Posted by lewincg
(Post 32768108)
It could be even worse...! I was looking at the BA Holiday T&Cs (https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...and-conditions) and they seem to define "significant change" as 12 hours or more:
The apparent oddity of that provision may come from the way that some bookings now qualify to be "package holidays" even though they are a long way from what package holidays were when those T&C were first written. |
Originally Posted by rossmacd
(Post 32765335)
I cannot imagine that the business community would be very forgiving when indeed they start to travel again in large volumes compared to now. It could be a temporary change in the current circumstances, but will BA will find themselves uncompetitive in future.
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Originally Posted by hearingdouble
(Post 32769708)
I sort of agree with this, although business travel is typically booked at relatively short notice and often full fare (with full flex) - so I’m not sure how likely most business travellers are to be impacted.
You're correct that the more short notice type of business bookings does limit the impact somewhat as I guess schedule changes are less frequent close in. Although I have had 2+ hr shifts of flight times the night before a flight, which on a day trip can make the whole journey unviable. |
So my flight to Istanbul was cancelled and I was put on a different flt number 3:35 hr earlier. Is this still classed a significant change? Ie not just retimed but flight cancelled and put on another one?
I am assuming I will only be entitled to a voucher but just wanted to check understanding! aks120 |
Originally Posted by aks120
(Post 32786915)
So my flight to Istanbul was cancelled and I was put on a different flt number 3:35 hr earlier. Is this still classed a significant change? Ie not just retimed but flight cancelled and put on another one?
I am assuming I will only be entitled to a voucher but just wanted to check understanding! aks120 |
Thanks - will phone and ask! I will let you know how I get on.
aks120 |
Has this now changed to 5 hours? I was told this was the case when I phoned earlier to cancel an Avios HKG flight where the time had changed. First they said I wouldn't get the £35 refunded because I had accepted the time change, which I hadn't. Then I was told that the change needed to be more than 5 hours, I questioned this as I recalled seeing this thread, and said I thought it was less but they seemed pretty adamant it was 5 hours. I then pointed out that my flight had changed by 10hrs and 25 mins, and they said oh yes, so it has, we'll have to override the system as it's not allowing the refund automatically.
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Standard guidelines, Schedule changes, - BA, option 3, screenshot done just this moment. 240 minutes.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...47ffc39994.png |
Thanks, good to know the call centre staff are on the ball :rolleyes: Shame about the change to 4hrs.
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On this, I had a great experience when they retimed my Larmaca flight in October (by around 3hrs) and ANY retiming seems to allow a change to another flight the same day. Ended up being able to join friends moved from LGW flight onto the best timed 1145 dep from Heathrow so our avois redemption is now sitting in a B class bucket!
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