End of BA MidHaul

Old Aug 27, 20, 5:25 am
  #91  
 
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Originally Posted by Joshm300 View Post
You have got Wizz Air from Luton to Moscow Vnukovo for the customer who is totally steered by price though? If you're willing to not choose your seat and go hand baggage only you can get there and back for less than £100, which BA won't ever be able to compete with. I would say on the whole this customer really doesn't care if they are on BA or not, as they probably don't collect points etc., they just want to get from A to B.

The customer BA should be aiming for on this specific route is the wealthy Russian who chooses to fly to London for business or leisure and myself, who has to go to Russia a number of times a year for work and finds the whole thing a bit stressful .....
Exactly right. Or the business traveller who goes very regularly at the company expense on the £1500++ J fares. Either way, the majority of the CW passengers were paying good money for a (mostly) good product. Not sure how a x2 daily A320 is going to help or where the sudden burst of economy no-frills-seeking passengers is going to come from. The midhaul A321 was perfectly suited to this route when the B787 was too big.
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Old Aug 27, 20, 6:33 am
  #92  
 
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Originally Posted by Genius1 View Post
My strong suspicion is that the A320 popping up on a lot of these routes is exactly that - a placeholder. The A320 is useless for cargo, and as cargo is an important component of airline revenue on many longer passenger routes, I would be surprised if the A320 stuck on at least some of these rotations.
I think this is a very valid point, BA operated without passengers twice weekly to DME with the 787 during the height of the pandemic, so the cargo must be a big part of the maths.

As soon as she was at the gate these three little trains of cargo appeared to be loaded for the flight back to London two weeks ago and that lot ainít going to fit in an A320.


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Old Aug 27, 20, 6:54 am
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Kgmm77 View Post
I think youíve answered your own question. On the basis youíre only willing to go if prices drop a lot, Iím not entirely sure BA would be that happy to gain more people like you.
Originally Posted by Joshm300 View Post
You have got Wizz Air from Luton to Moscow Vnukovo for the customer who is totally steered by price though? If you're willing to not choose your seat and go hand baggage only you can get there and back for less than £100, which BA won't ever be able to compete with. I would say on the whole this customer really doesn't care if they are on BA or not, as they probably don't collect points etc., they just want to get from A to B.

The customer BA should be aiming for on this specific route is the wealthy Russian who chooses to fly to London for business or leisure and myself, who has to go to Russia a number of times a year for work and finds the whole thing a bit stressful (you won't understand the relief of seeing the Dreamliner pull up at the gate at DME after a week of Russian induced wierdness and the trauma of having your passport checked at 6 different points to get out of the country until you've done it) and therefore I choose to make the journey as comfortable as possible, plus keep my Silver card from a combination of WTP and CW on the route, which then keeps me loyal to BA for my other trips. I think in this specific instance, it is a route where BA could win by differentiating themselves from Wizz rather than trying to compete with them (which I totally get is what they need to do on European leisure routes).
I would have agreed and said BA would prefer wealthy business travellers over leisure pax, but now that itís short haul I just donít know. Why would business travellers pick BA when the fares are high and the offering is low? Surely they would be swayed towards Aeroflot?

Personally, I donít like LCCs so I definitely wouldnít consider Wizz but I get a lot of budget travellers would.

If BA keep fares to DME/CAI/AMM the same, then surely some passengers will just get annoyed and switch carrier. It seems ludicrous to switch from a CW bed to a CE seat and not offer any reduction in price.
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Old Aug 27, 20, 7:12 am
  #94  
 
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Originally Posted by BAeuro View Post
I would have agreed and said BA would prefer wealthy business travellers over leisure pax, but now that itís short haul I just donít know. Why would business travellers pick BA when the fares are high and the offering is low? Surely they would be swayed towards Aeroflot?

Personally, I donít like LCCs so I definitely wouldnít consider Wizz but I get a lot of budget travellers would.

If BA keep fares to DME/CAI/AMM the same, then surely some passengers will just get annoyed and switch carrier. It seems ludicrous to switch from a CW bed to a CE seat and not offer any reduction in price.
This is BA, of course they are going to keep the fares the same. There will be a transition period when people book without realising the change in service, and theyíll get away with charging the same. Itíll only be when the passenger numbers drop off over time that theyíll be forced to do something (probably pull the route and blame something else).
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Old Aug 27, 20, 7:12 am
  #95  
 
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Originally Posted by BAeuro View Post
I would have agreed and said BA would prefer wealthy business travellers over leisure pax, but now that itís short haul I just donít know. Why would business travellers pick BA when the fares are high and the offering is low? Surely they would be swayed towards Aeroflot?

Personally, I donít like LCCs so I definitely wouldnít consider Wizz but I get a lot of budget travellers would.

If BA keep fares to DME/CAI/AMM the same, then surely some passengers will just get annoyed and switch carrier. It seems ludicrous to switch from a CW bed to a CE seat and not offer any reduction in price.
​​​​​​They've already lowered fares on CAI:
Club World Fare Inc Saturday night fare (I class)



Club Europe Fare Inc Saturday night fare (I class)

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Old Aug 27, 20, 7:16 am
  #96  
 
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Originally Posted by BAeuro View Post
I would have agreed and said BA would prefer wealthy business travellers over leisure pax, but now that itís short haul I just donít know. Why would business travellers pick BA when the fares are high and the offering is low? Surely they would be swayed towards Aeroflot?

Personally, I donít like LCCs so I definitely wouldnít consider Wizz but I get a lot of budget travellers would.

If BA keep fares to DME/CAI/AMM the same, then surely some passengers will just get annoyed and switch carrier. It seems ludicrous to switch from a CW bed to a CE seat and not offer any reduction in price.
Fares are being realigned. Current CW fare starts at £1500+, new CE fare starts at £650+.

But almost everyone in J on this route is either on company J travel policies or has deep pockets. You might attract some people from SU, or from indirect routings at this price. I will stick with SU (or AY) rather than a shorthaul seat for sure.
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Old Aug 27, 20, 7:30 am
  #97  
 
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Originally Posted by BAeuro View Post
I would have agreed and said BA would prefer wealthy business travellers over leisure pax, but now that itís short haul I just donít know. Why would business travellers pick BA when the fares are high and the offering is low? Surely they would be swayed towards Aeroflot?

Personally, I donít like LCCs so I definitely wouldnít consider Wizz but I get a lot of budget travellers would.

If BA keep fares to DME/CAI/AMM the same, then surely some passengers will just get annoyed and switch carrier. It seems ludicrous to switch from a CW bed to a CE seat and not offer any reduction in price.
The one thing that would stop me using Aeroflot (and it might have no scientific basis at all) is safety. The flight 1492 disaster last year at SVO has been blamed on various pilot issues and design issues with the plane (after a slightly questionable trial), and apparently Aeroflot were then advertising flights as Airbus/Boeing operated and then switching to the Superjet at the last minute when people had no choice but to get on the thing or not travel at all, which puts me off. If Finnair get the A350 back to Heathrow, that will be the best way to go, especially with the fantasic new lounge at Helsinki.
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Old Aug 27, 20, 8:26 am
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Originally Posted by Joshm300 View Post
The one thing that would stop me using Aeroflot (and it might have no scientific basis at all) is safety. The flight 1492 disaster last year at SVO has been blamed on various pilot issues and design issues with the plane (after a slightly questionable trial), and apparently Aeroflot were then advertising flights as Airbus/Boeing operated and then switching to the Superjet at the last minute when people had no choice but to get on the thing or not travel at all, which puts me off. If Finnair get the A350 back to Heathrow, that will be the best way to go, especially with the fantasic new lounge at Helsinki.
I find Aeroflot very good indeed and have no issues using them, if I have to fly Y then I use them instead of BA.

Going to be strange now sat in the Navigator lounge, BA could park the A320 in it compared to a couple of years ago when you had a 747 and 777 within 1-2 hours of each other.

Oh and not sure why you have your passport checked 6 times... Once at check in, once before going to the passport control, once at passport control then once at the gate. Typically at DME I am check-in to lounge in about 10-15 mins max especially when being sent down the diplomatic channel where you are nearly always the only person.
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Old Aug 27, 20, 10:47 am
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The real killer on LHR-CAI is that peak economy pricing is 12500 Avios, and peak biz pricing is 37500 Avios. So they are still using the 3x multiplier as if there is Premium Ec and not the 2x multiplier like on European short-haul. Do people think they will leave it like this or change it to 2x? 37500 Avios plus cash for a CE seat compared to 12500 plus less cash for an ET seat is an horrendous difference for a very small difference.
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Old Aug 27, 20, 2:11 pm
  #100  
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Originally Posted by ankomonkey View Post
The real killer on LHR-CAI is that peak economy pricing is 12500 Avios, and peak biz pricing is 37500 Avios. So they are still using the 3x multiplier as if there is Premium Ec and not the 2x multiplier like on European short-haul. Do people think they will leave it like this or change it to 2x? 37500 Avios plus cash for a CE seat compared to 12500 plus less cash for an ET seat is an horrendous difference for a very small difference.
I suspect this will change - everything is still up in the air (or not, as the problem is).
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Old Aug 28, 20, 1:45 am
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Originally Posted by ankomonkey View Post
The real killer on LHR-CAI is that peak economy pricing is 12500 Avios, and peak biz pricing is 37500 Avios. So they are still using the 3x multiplier as if there is Premium Ec and not the 2x multiplier like on European short-haul. Do people think they will leave it like this or change it to 2x? 37500 Avios plus cash for a CE seat compared to 12500 plus less cash for an ET seat is an horrendous difference for a very small difference.
CAI was always one on those destinations for which it was usually possible to find Avios bookings available in CW at relatively short notice. So I don't think there was that much demand for these anyway. And, as somebody said, the readjustment of the Avios charge is probably a work in progress.
The real killer, I would imagine, is going to be filling the premium cabin, at any price. From my experience of the route, the larger proportion of CW traffic seemed to be "leisure" rather than business travel. Can't imagine very many of these folk will be forking out for the degraded Euro-trash experience for a 5+ hours ride when, for example, MS in 777 economy, especially if you happen to be lucky enough not to have the seat next to you occupied, would certainly be a more comfortable experience; and the MS premium class cabin is a real premium cabin. I myself will regretfully be voting with my feet and abandoning BA for my travels to Egypt (typically, to/from New York). I have been flying with them on that route at least twice a year for a long time now, and that despite a pretty poor schedule with a long LHR layover in the JFK to CAI direction. There still remains a (admittedly, ever-diminishing) number of airlines flying real premium cabins as opposed to Euro-trash on the route: AF, MS, perhaps KL if they maintain the route they are restarting in September,...... Even if I had to submit to Euro-trash, I would make sure it was for the shortest possible time -- AZ, LX, LH, TK; certainly not BA for a 5+ hours ride. A real pity, now that they seem to have moved to an all Club Suite service on the JFK route.........
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Old Aug 28, 20, 7:40 am
  #102  
 
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Will Tier Point earnings stay the same? Otherwise I am in trouble in terms of requalification, as AMM is a regular route of mine.

Don't like the idea of no catering or IFE on a 5 hour flight, and from what I can see there is no reduction in price; just doing a dummy booking for November gets me a £417 quote, which is similar to previous years off-season prices - for what would be a LCC serivce on a medium haul route I would not pay more than £250.

I would switch to RJ in a flash (especially when they return to T3) but for the poor Avios TP earning inhibiting requalification. Their comparative hard product will be considerably better on this route now. Would prefer BA to just codeshare with RJ which would enable decent hard product AND decent avios and TP earnings. Shouldn't have to choose between the two.
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Old Aug 29, 20, 11:14 am
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Does anyone remember the BA flight from Gatwick to Sharm El Sheikh where only short haul business class services and facilities were offered? I always got the feeling that they speeded up that flight whereas the flight to Cairo always felt slowed down.

Well, that was the period before I discovered the TP and status game.
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Old Aug 29, 20, 11:25 am
  #104  
 
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Originally Posted by GBOAC View Post
Will Tier Point earnings stay the same? Otherwise I am in trouble in terms of requalification, as AMM is a regular route of mine.

I would switch to RJ in a flash (especially when they return to T3) but for the poor Avios TP earning inhibiting requalification.
Surely you would still get the same number of TPs for a return flight LHR - AMM on RJ i.e. 280 tier points. Of course, these flights won't count for as part of your minimum four BA flights. I would always select RJ in preference to BA, despite RJ's inconvenience arrival time into AMM from LHR. But I am now looking into flying from AMS, especially when connecting in AMM.
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Old Aug 30, 20, 3:55 am
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Originally Posted by Yanshuf View Post
Surely you would still get the same number of TPs for a return flight LHR - AMM on RJ i.e. 280 tier points. Of course, these flights won't count for as part of your minimum four BA flights. I would always select RJ in preference to BA, despite RJ's inconvenience arrival time into AMM from LHR. But I am now looking into flying from AMS, especially when connecting in AMM.
For those of us for whom our employer only allows Econ or Prem Econ flying the difference is 70TP round trip with BA (non-flex) or RJ 40TP round trip (for every econ fare other than Full fare econ). This adds up to a big difference over 3 or so trips a year, especially in the days when I was scraping silver (and given how the world is heading, I will be back there soon enough).
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