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BA to cut up to 12,000 jobs in "restructuring and redundancy programme"

BA to cut up to 12,000 jobs in "restructuring and redundancy programme"

Old Jun 7, 2020, 6:39 am
  #1381  
 
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Originally Posted by kaizenflying
I'm not sure if this has been answered already but surely cabin crew couldn't operate all aircraft types on the proposed new ways of working? I'm sure there was some CAA regulation on aircraft licences but are we saying under the new Ts and Cs cabin crew would all cover 777/787/747/380/350/319/320/321?
No there would be separate sections of crew. I believe it will be something along the lines of everyone is 777/787 trained (which counts as one type), Short-haul A320 series trained (which covers A319, 320, 321 and neos), and then lastly a choice of either A350/B747/A380 (if the latter 2 are still around post-COVID-19). One might say Well this is still separate fleets in a way. True but its a lot more flexible than the same above structure divided further into WW/EF/MF!
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 6:45 am
  #1382  
 
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Originally Posted by kaizenflying
I'm not sure if this has been answered already but surely cabin crew couldn't operate all aircraft types on the proposed new ways of working? I'm sure there was some CAA regulation on aircraft licences but are we saying under the new Ts and Cs cabin crew would all cover 777/787/747/380/350/319/320/321?
According to HFP:
All crew will be licenced on the A320 and Boeing 777/787 family, with an additional third type on top either A380, A350 or Boeing 747.
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 6:57 am
  #1383  
 
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The 747 and 380 are likely to disappear. I believe the 747 has now been confirmed to go.
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 7:01 am
  #1384  
 
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Originally Posted by Littlegirl
The 747 and 380 are likely to disappear. I believe the 747 has now been confirmed to go.
Ive heard so many different sides. Are the 747s truly not coming back? Its what I would expect though
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 7:04 am
  #1385  
 
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Originally Posted by AirbusA350
The moral of my comment was about the stark (and frankly tremendously more mature) difference between BALPA and Unite/GMB. True at the end of the day pilots may succumb in a brutal fashioned despite BALPA’s engagement (hopefully not), but I am sure that they will be truly grateful for the efforts BALPA has put in.
I would hope that BALPA's more proactive approach was rewarded by BA, and not just scraps from the negotiating table.

Unless UNITE have a cunning plan to roll out after the S188 notice period expires, it is difficult to understand their position (assuming it isn't damage limitation to the unions image). I've never been in a trade union, so don't understand the mechanics of the relationship between union and member. However, if Unite are taking money off of people do they not have some form of legal obligation to represent them? Could disgruntled employees take the union to court for breach of contract?
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 7:11 am
  #1386  
 
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Originally Posted by opus99
Ive heard so many different sides. Are the 747s truly not coming back? Its what I would expect though
To be fair, I dont know about the 380 and that may well continue once things pick up again but it is very likely the 747 wont fly again as they were already due to be retired and they are not very fuel efficient compared to other available aircraft.
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 7:49 am
  #1387  
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BA faces a judgement day. BALPA holds a lot of aces here, especially in the terms of trainers (ie. there are a lot of bus drivers out of a job but they just can't turn up and drive for another company, plus all the ongoing checks, etc.). Chatting to an exceptionally senior captain who is also a trainer, they said that if BA believe that it will be 2023 before they get back to 2019 pax levels (my caveat is I haven't a clue of knowing if this is true or not, I just repeat their words), then the training should have started two years ago. Asking their opinion of BALPA they did not think that they had done much good, but no harm, but they are glad that they are talking. However, they are fuming at BA that despite sitting down to talk all the numbers went up and are now using the threat of compulsory redundancy. It's a toxic relationship. The UK is too close to the US model of employment which is detestable at the lower end. Other EU countries (yeah, yeah I know) have very high productivity, higher salaries, high morale, and high employer/employee relationships through, gosh, unions and work councils. My EU counterparts don't care about being made redundant and often joke "UK first" and "why don't you have unions?". It can only get worse from here onwards, the pandemic is all that was needed. BA has been extremely profitable with the current Ts and Cs and there is no need for that erosion. Truly the straw. Best of luck to all of you.
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 8:09 am
  #1388  
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Originally Posted by Silver Fox
Other EU countries (yeah, yeah I know) have very high productivity, higher salaries, high morale, and high employer/employee relationships through, gosh, unions and work councils. My EU counterparts don't care about being made redundant and often joke "UK first" and "why don't you have unions?". It can only get worse from here onwards, the pandemic is all that was needed. BA has been extremely profitable with the current Ts and Cs and there is no need for that erosion. Truly the straw. Best of luck to all of you.
You missed a key part of the equation as so many do so I'll assist you. You meant BA has been extremely profitable with the current T&Cs and the passenger loads it was achieving pre-CV19. So what do you think happens to the former if the latter spectacularly declines and recover very slowly over 2-3 years? Nothing?

As for the comparison with other EU countries there is also another dimension. Why do you think it is that despite these so called superior pay and conditions, countries such as Spain, France, Italy all had persistently high unemployment compared to the UK over the past 10-15 years? Why did UK employment recover so much quicker after the GFC of 2007/8 compared to most of the other large EU economies?
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 9:06 am
  #1389  
 
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Detailed CC proposals are available over on pprune.
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 9:42 am
  #1390  
 
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I do think its a shame that BA have done this to the pilots. BALPA happily engaged with BA and tried to find a solution, unlike Unite and GMB. What do they get for it, a slap in the face and the same deal as the CC. Doesnt exactly motivate the others to talk to BA!
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 10:24 am
  #1391  
 
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Latest Unite Comms

So whilst BALPAs communications have been exceedingly well framed, factual, mature and realistic, Unites latest comms is a WhatsApp conversation (imaginary might I add) starring Alex Cruz, UK Government, Priti Patel and BA staff. You honestly couldnt make it up. This rather reads as some catty teenage email my nieces and nephews would send to their enemies in class. Not that of a supposed established organisation to which members pay into to try and protect them...yet again, I think Unite are becoming increasingly culpable along with BA for worsening their members mental health which I know has seemingly been ever so important to Unite!
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Last edited by AirbusA350; Jun 7, 2020 at 10:32 am
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 10:30 am
  #1392  
 
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Originally Posted by Silver Fox
The UK is too close to the US model of employment which is detestable at the lower end. Other EU countries (yeah, yeah I know) have very high productivity, higher salaries, high morale, and high employer/employee relationships through, gosh, unions and work councils. My EU counterparts don't care about being made redundant and often joke "UK first" and "why don't you have unions?".
Inflexible labour markets only create high unemployment, especially among young people. Look at the numbers for some EU members. Yes, the older workers are 'protected' (or trapped in their jobs) but the young can't even find a job because no one wants to create a position. Companies refrain from hiring people specifically for the reason that they won't be able to cut the number of employees when necessary. Imagine if you were denied the ability to terminate a service you could no longer afford or no longer needed.
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 10:31 am
  #1393  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Skyflier
I became a millionaire in August last year! ..... In Bali of all places!
At IDR 17,846 to the this is perhaps not quite the achievement it first appears
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 10:42 am
  #1394  
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Originally Posted by BOH
You missed a key part of the equation as so many do so I'll assist you. You meant BA has been extremely profitable with the current T&Cs and the passenger loads it was achieving pre-CV19. So what do you think happens to the former if the latter spectacularly declines and recover very slowly over 2-3 years? Nothing?

As for the comparison with other EU countries there is also another dimension. Why do you think it is that despite these so called superior pay and conditions, countries such as Spain, France, Italy all had persistently high unemployment compared to the UK over the past 10-15 years? Why did UK employment recover so much quicker after the GFC of 2007/8 compared to most of the other large EU economies?
Of course I meant with the passenger loads previously. Sorry, I will try to be clearer next time for you. However, I expect them to be extremely profitable after they have taken this hit in 2020 (plus a bit beyond).

There is no one answer to the other questions you posed that fits all those countries, and anyway it is an irrelevance and a distraction to this conversation. And the same is true of UK employment of course. But, since we are assisting each other, there is a wealth of publicly available research on those kinds of questions from very well regarded institutions, and you should draw your own conclusions as to whether these is a single answer or not that can be applied. It's well worth investing some of your time in researching them. You will have to go back prior to 2007/8 by a wider margin than you suggested though.
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Old Jun 7, 2020, 10:44 am
  #1395  
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Originally Posted by Agent69
Do CC have a choice of who represents them? Could they resign on mass from UNITE and sign up with another union who may better represent them?
They're entitled to but organising that would be some task, especially on furlough.

Not as simple as it sounds.
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