CSM attitude to 'self upgraders'

Old Jan 27, 2020, 7:59 am
  #76  
 
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Originally Posted by snaxmuppet
That is of course your choice but that is tantamount to burying your head in the sand while people around you steal from you. Yes, I say steal from you because that lost revenue puts up everyone's fares... including yours.

I am not on some kind of mission here. It is just that when people break the rules and steal in this way from BA so it is everyone of us, including ME, that suffers.

If you don't want to help stop it then as I say, that is your choice, but please don't criticise those that do want to help... they are doing the right thing and the more we do the more that BA are likely to realise that it matters to us. At least the CC will realise it more and they are more likely to stop it. If we all just ignore it then we can't blame BA and CC if they say that no one cares.
Where was I critical?
If somebody feels as strongly as you about an issue such as this, and is on the right side of the argument, more power to you.
I always find it interesting when some FT'ers get so worked up about what is such a trivial event, for me at least.
Life is way too short.
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 8:08 am
  #77  
 
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Originally Posted by stevie
Where was I critical?
Sorry... I didn't make myself clear... I didn't say you were critical but some on this thread have been.

I pay for my flying myself and being retired I don't have a lot of disposable income so when I see others getting stuff for free that I have had to pay thousands of pounds for myself it isn't surprising that I get upset. I am sure many others feel the same. Yes, life is short but someone has to stand up to the thieves or it would be a free-for-all and as always... those that follow the rules are the ones to lose out.
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 8:10 am
  #78  
 
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Originally Posted by snaxmuppet
Sorry... I didn't make myself clear... I didn't say you were critical but some on this thread have been.

I pay for my flying myself and being retired I don't have a lot of disposable income so when I see others getting stuff for free that I have had to pay thousands of pounds for myself it isn't surprising that I get upset. I am sure many others feel the same. Yes, life is short but someone has to stand up to the thieves or it would be a free-for-all and as always... those that follow the rules are the ones to lose out.
Fair enough I totally accept why you might be angry.
BA crew need to sort this out 100%.
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 8:11 am
  #79  
 
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Originally Posted by snaxmuppet
Sorry... I didn't make myself clear... I didn't say you were critical but some on this thread have been.

I pay for my flying myself and being retired I don't have a lot of disposable income so when I see others getting stuff for free that I have had to pay thousands of pounds for myself it isn't surprising that I get upset. I am sure many others feel the same. Yes, life is short but someone has to stand up to the thieves or it would be a free-for-all and as always... those that follow the rules are the ones to lose out.
If you are paying to fly business or first, i dont think you get to play the retired / low disposable income card...even if i otherwise agree with you.
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 8:22 am
  #80  
 
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Originally Posted by mctaste
If you are paying to fly business or first, i dont think you get to play the retired / low disposable income card...
LOL!

"Low" is a relative term. By my friends standards I am quite well-off... but it is clear that by the standards of some on this forum I am just above the breadline!

I never fly First. I cannot afford it and in any case... it just isn't worth the extra over club IMO. I normally fly Y within Europe and WTP longhaul but occasionally J. I have done a couple of "cheap" TP runs for fun. It is my main hobby to be honest and I can't afford to fly anything like as much as I would like to. So when you are talking about airline flying even a reasonable pension is very quickly eaten up and I am then into my savings and that won't last if I am not very careful.

So I do claim that I don't have a lot of disposable income when we are talking about flying around the world as a hobby!!! Every time I book a J ticket it stings!
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 8:58 am
  #81  
 
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Unless this passenger was disturbing you in some way, isn't this clearly in the MYOB realm? Seriously...
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 9:00 am
  #82  
 
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Originally Posted by DutchessPDX
Unless this passenger was disturbing you in some way, isn't this clearly in the MYOB realm? Seriously...
No... for the reasons I have given
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 9:16 am
  #83  
 
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Originally Posted by snaxmuppet
That is of course your choice but that is tantamount to burying your head in the sand while people around you steal from you. Yes, I say steal from you because that lost revenue puts up everyone's fares... including yours.
Maybe I'm being dense but I don't see how this follows. To be clear, I'm not condoning the act of self-upgrading, but it seems to me that of the arguments that may be laid against it, this one is somewhat weak at best.

Firstly, where is the lost revenue? To claim that there is surely presupposes that the upgrader would otherwise be happy to pay the fare for the higher cabin if they knew their scheme had no chance of success. Yet I see no evidence this is the case. If the lost revenue is purported to come from others who would be happy to pay for the higher cabin but now decide to adopt the self-upgrade strategy, then that is surely dependant upon successful execution of that plan - and if we take flygirl68's experience as representative, that is very much not the normal outcome.

Secondly, even if we accept that there is lost revenue, why would that mean fares go up? I won't claim to understand the dark arts of airline revenue mgmt, but consider when someone has a choice between e.g. BA and Virgin and chooses the latter. That is (genuine) "lost revenue" - do BA fares rise? I don't see that they do.

So perhaps I've missed something in your argument and would welcome if you could expand upon it.
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 9:22 am
  #84  
 
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See... this has me torn.

In WTP, it's more of an issue if that person ends up in front of you or behind you. If you've got an empty seat and suddenly someone who isn't mean to be there is reclining that seat; I think you have a right to be aggrieved. Same thing applies to someone behind you grabbing the seat back as they get up and down, etc.
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 9:34 am
  #85  
 
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Originally Posted by BertieBadger
Maybe I'm being dense but I don't see how this follows. To be clear, I'm not condoning the act of self-upgrading, but it seems to me that of the arguments that may be laid against it, this one is somewhat weak at best.

Firstly, where is the lost revenue? To claim that there is surely presupposes that the upgrader would otherwise be happy to pay the fare for the higher cabin if they knew their scheme had no chance of success. Yet I see no evidence this is the case. If the lost revenue is purported to come from others who would be happy to pay for the higher cabin but now decide to adopt the self-upgrade strategy, then that is surely dependant upon successful execution of that plan - and if we take flygirl68's experience as representative, that is very much not the normal outcome.

Secondly, even if we accept that there is lost revenue, why would that mean fares go up? I won't claim to understand the dark arts of airline revenue mgmt, but consider when someone has a choice between e.g. BA and Virgin and chooses the latter. That is (genuine) "lost revenue" - do BA fares rise? I don't see that they do.

So perhaps I've missed something in your argument and would welcome if you could expand upon it.
The lost revenue, as I see it, is not necessarily directly from that event. I agree... it is unlikely that any one event would result in lost revenue on that occasion. The lost revenue would come from others seeing that this strategy is successful and so it is quite possible that that perpetrator, or an observer nearby, might take a chance on not buying the higher grade ticket in future in the hope they would be successful in self-upgrading. Of course, they would need to accept that they might not be successful but the savings are so large and there being very little (or no) penalty for trying, I could imagine some people trying it on if it looked like it had any chance of success. Flygirl68 says that she has not seen it succeed but surely that is because of observant and competent crews and possibly assisted by passengers bringing it to their attention. I am simply saying that if we don't continue to bring this behaviour to attention of the crew then there will be an increasing chance of success.

My assertion that fares might go up is basic business rules... less income means lower margins so fares are likely to increase to maintain margin. You could claim that this is such a small percentage of BA's income that this alone is unlikely to affect prices and I would agree with that but it all goes into the business mix and so it might contribute.

Just my opinion
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 9:39 am
  #86  
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Originally Posted by snaxmuppet
That is of course your choice but that is tantamount to burying your head in the sand while people around you steal from you. Yes, I say steal from you because that lost revenue puts up everyone's fares... including yours.

I am not on some kind of mission here. It is just that when people break the rules and steal in this way from BA so it is everyone of us, including ME, that suffers.

If you don't want to help stop it then as I say, that is your choice, but please don't criticise those that do want to help... they are doing the right thing and the more we do the more that BA are likely to realise that it matters to us. At least the CC will realise it more and they are more likely to stop it. If we all just ignore it then we can't blame BA and CC if they say that no one cares.
A person who self-upgrades doesn't steal from you. The seat is unoccupied and any revenue potential is lost upon take-off unless the cabin crew decides to charge the upgrader on the spot which in this case they didn't. The airline doesn't make any money if it forces the wayward seat stealer back to his assigned location.

This is a pallid justification to intrude in a matter that is none of your business because you are resentful someone else took the initiative and got something for free that you paid for.

Do you do the same at the theater, sporting events, concerts when someone moves forward to get a better seat?
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 10:00 am
  #87  
 
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Surely travel classes are a fundamental part of an airline's business model? As such, airlines will want them be protected and enforced rigorously.
Maybe next time the OP will decide not to bother with WTP -- what's the point in paying extra? That is a direct loss of revenue caused by not enforcing travel classes.
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 10:05 am
  #88  
 
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Originally Posted by snaxmuppet
The lost revenue, as I see it, is not necessarily directly from that event. I agree... it is unlikely that any one event would result in lost revenue on that occasion. The lost revenue would come from others seeing that this strategy is successful and so it is quite possible that that perpetrator, or an observer nearby, might take a chance on not buying the higher grade ticket in future in the hope they would be successful in self-upgrading. Of course, they would need to accept that they might not be successful but the savings are so large and there being very little (or no) penalty for trying, I could imagine some people trying it on if it looked like it had any chance of success. Flygirl68 says that she has not seen it succeed but surely that is because of observant and competent crews and possibly assisted by passengers bringing it to their attention. I am simply saying that if we don't continue to bring this behaviour to attention of the crew then there will be an increasing chance of success.

My assertion that fares might go up is basic business rules... less income means lower margins so fares are likely to increase to maintain margin. You could claim that this is such a small percentage of BA's income that this alone is unlikely to affect prices and I would agree with that but it all goes into the business mix and so it might contribute.

Just my opinion
So you are saying they are "cheapening" the experience?
Then aren't horrible FAs also "lost revenue?" These observant cabin crew, are they attentive and also treat customers very well?
And dirty seats?
Oh, if you want to go that far, isn't BA losing lots of revenue for not charging for every ancillary fee like the LCCs? From what I understand people don't fly BA because they want to, it is because there is no (reasonable) choice.
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 10:15 am
  #89  
 
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This is an interesting thread!

I wonder if the class someone sneaks in to makes a difference to whether or not people find it acceptable / unacceptable? Is it OK and a bit cheeky to go from WT to WTP, but for the same person to go to CW or F would be taking the proverbial? Does it make a difference if you pay for your flights or not?

Would you change your mind if you'd set your heart on a particular menu item, and the last plate of it went to someone you had seen sneak in to the cabin but hadn't been spotted by the crew?

Me personally, I don't think I'd feel as aggrieved in WTP as I would be in F. I pay a lot of money to fly First or Club World, and it's my money not a super-generous company travel policy, so I would be pretty peeved if it became something that people just did because they knew they could get away with it, therefore I would flag to the crew if I saw someone do it.
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Old Jan 27, 2020, 10:35 am
  #90  
 
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Originally Posted by dav662
As subject2load has said I also experienced this in QR out of DOH. The business class at the back had an empty two seats. Suddenly two ladies appeared from the back and sat down and recline the seats and put the blankets up and closed their eyes.
The crew came and asked me where did they come from? I said from the back I think. They looked around the cabin and probably found they have two more than they should and woke them up and told them to get back to their original seats. After a big of talking the crew refused to let them sit there and sent them back. The crew were very firm.
i have seen this on LCC s too. They are firm and send them back.
Also seen this on LCCs where upfront seats cost. They usually site 'aircraft balance' as the reason people need to get back to their assigned seats.
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