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-   -   BA and Qatar joint venture application to Australia (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/2005787-ba-qatar-joint-venture-application-australia.html)

sxc Jan 23, 20 3:25 am

BA and Qatar joint venture application to Australia
 
Looks like BA and Qatar are looking to coordinate pricing and schedules to Australia on a set of flights:

https://www.executivetraveller.com/n...ralian-flights

Nine 'key routes' are highlighted in the joint business proposal:
  • Canberra – London
  • Melbourne - London
  • Melbourne - Edinburgh
  • Melbourne - Manchester
  • Adelaide – Manchester
  • Adelaide – London
  • Perth - London
  • Perth - Edinburgh
  • Perth - Manchester

wemyss Jan 23, 20 3:38 am

A total win-win for BA, but for QR what can they get associating themselves with a base airline where you have to climb over bodies to get out of your business class seats and the service is so inconsistent?

BrianDromey Jan 23, 20 4:08 am


Originally Posted by wemyss (Post 31984601)
A total win-win for BA, but for QR what can they get associating themselves with a base airline where you have to climb over bodies to get out of your business class seats and the service is so inconsistent?

To look at JV's just in the context of business class hardware is an extremely myopic view. Looking at the routes the only BA operated service that connects to QR services is the LHR-DOH, so I don't think the Club World service plays much of a part. BA have a huge FFP, marketing and sales database in the UK, that is what QR gain from a JV. QR may have an exceptional business class product, but they do not have yields to match. In fact they are almost always price leaders. An interesting development - it will be interesting to see the effect on

Dave Noble Jan 23, 20 4:11 am

yet another anti consumer cartel attempt to reduce competition

sxc Jan 23, 20 4:15 am

The plus for us will be that you can travel on QR metal and get bonus avios on the BA code.

Most of these key routes will be all QR metal assuming this will mostly funnel people into services via DOH.

But does this show a souring of relations with QF? Currently if you book BA to MEL, you are put on SYD-MEL on QF. Now you’ll just go on QR from DOH.

flylikelinz Jan 23, 20 4:38 am

Onward domestic connections in Sydney isnít exactly seamless and many would welcome flying ĎstraightĒ into Adelaide or Melbourne or Perth. Over connecting in Sydney.

Dan72 Jan 23, 20 4:46 am


Originally Posted by sxc (Post 31984665)

But does this show a souring of relations with QF? Currently if you book BA to MEL, you are put on SYD-MEL on QF. Now youíll just go on QR from DOH.

Not really. BA already codeshare with CX and MH to Australia. I also expect that neither QF or BA sees each other as the key competition. I expect that they see the Gulf and mainland Chinese carriers as the real competition.

I also wonder if QF might be building up to ditch the EK partnership, which appears less close than it once did.

Funky Spike Jan 23, 20 4:47 am


Originally Posted by sxc (Post 31984665)
The plus for us will be that you can travel on QR metal and get bonus avios on the BA code.

Most of these key routes will be all QR metal assuming this will mostly funnel people into services via DOH.

But does this show a souring of relations with QF? Currently if you book BA to MEL, you are put on SYD-MEL on QF. Now youíll just go on QR from DOH.

I always used to get LHR-HKG-MEL with a BA codeshare on CX HKG-MEL.

For the record BA codes on QR LGW-DOH-MEL have been available for some time.

Spike

allturnleft Jan 23, 20 4:48 am

Are there definitely no new BA routes as a result of this? Does SIN-SYD get dumped?

Globaliser Jan 23, 20 4:50 am


Originally Posted by sxc (Post 31984665)
But does this show a souring of relations with QF? Currently if you book BA to MEL, you are put on SYD-MEL on QF.

Currently, if you book BA codes to MEL and you want only one stop, you might be put on CX for HKG-MEL, you might be on MH for KUL-MEL, and you might be on QF for SIN-MEL. Oh, and you might be on QR for DOH-MEL.

So it doesn't seem to me like this would be such a dramatic change so far as routing is concerned. The commercial aspects may, of course, be different - and they are pretty much wholly unknown to almost all of us.

LGWClosedAgain Jan 23, 20 4:52 am

I'll take SIN over DOH any day.

BillyBleach Jan 23, 20 5:12 am


Originally Posted by wemyss (Post 31984601)
A total win-win for BA, but for QR what can they get associating themselves with a base airline where you have to climb over bodies to get out of your business class seats and the service is so inconsistent?

True but to be fair not all of the Qatar fleet have the 'Q-Suite'.

You have to be aware when booking, as some flights (albeit not those to and from London) arer still slopey J seats - far worse that BA.

cosmo74 Jan 23, 20 5:17 am


Originally Posted by BillyBleach (Post 31984766)
True but to be fair not all of the Qatar fleet have the 'Q-Suite'.

You have to be aware when booking, as some flights (albeit not those to and from London) arer still slopey J seats - far worse that BA.

Personally I preferred their older long-haul 2x2x2 J seating to that of CW.

Howard Long Jan 23, 20 5:58 am


Originally Posted by cosmo74 (Post 31984777)
Personally I preferred their older long-haul 2x2x2 J seating to that of CW.

We may be in the minority, but I do agree with you on the QR 777, which as far as I am aware is always a 180 degree flat seat in 2-2-2 config. While window lovers may find themselves stepping over their seat mates, there are plenty of aisle seats. I also find that seat to be super comfy, definitely more so the the Qsuites. Down side is lack of storage space, but then CW has that problem too.

I think there are still some QR A330s that aren't 180 degrees, but I've yet to encounter that configuration.

DYKWIA Jan 23, 20 7:15 am


Originally Posted by BillyBleach (Post 31984766)
You have to be aware when booking, as some flights (albeit not those to and from London) arer still slopey J seats - far worse that BA.

No they are not - long haul anyway. The B787s and A350s are 1-2-1 configuration (if not Q suite).

Some of the B777s and A330s are 2-2-2, fully flat.

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/qata...ays-fleet.html

everGLAdes Jan 23, 20 7:54 am


Originally Posted by Dave Noble (Post 31984659)
yet another anti consumer cartel attempt to reduce competition

Or make the market more competitive against the likes of Emirates, Etihad and Singapore.

wemyss Jan 23, 20 9:54 am


Originally Posted by BrianDromey (Post 31984655)
To look at JV's just in the context of business class hardware is an extremely myopic view. Looking at the routes the only BA operated service that connects to QR services is the LHR-DOH, so I don't think the Club World service plays much of a part. BA have a huge FFP, marketing and sales database in the UK, that is what QR gain from a JV. QR may have an exceptional business class product, but they do not have yields to match. In fact they are almost always price leaders. An interesting development - it will be interesting to see the effect on

Does QR not fly to EDI? (soon to be Qsuites)
Does BA not fly to EDI?
This may be a super myopic view ofcourse...

Dave Noble Jan 23, 20 10:58 am


Originally Posted by everGLAdes (Post 31985236)
Or make the market more competitive against the likes of Emirates, Etihad and Singapore.

reducing competitioon doesn't make something more competitive. So - if BA, QR, EK, EY and SQ all got together to agree on what fares to charge, it would be even more competitive?

BA and QR are separate companies and should be competing themselves

email2markt Jan 23, 20 11:31 am

This partnership will presumably help BA improve load factors on BA15/16, BA11/12 and BA0123/0124 as more passengers can use them cheaply for onward journeys. I think it also makes it easier for BA to financially justify a new flight from Doha / Singapore to Australia?

Flying Yazata Jan 23, 20 11:42 am

I'm more interested in what kinds of fares we'd see in the future with a such JV. Not to mention routing options. Hopefully the possibility to route BA fares via DOH, besides SIN and HKG. The hardware changes and it's not really the big deal. One can also hope this would also strengthen QR as a part of the OW.

Cap'n Benj Jan 23, 20 11:43 am


Originally Posted by wemyss (Post 31984601)
A total win-win for BA, but for QR what can they get associating themselves with a base airline where you have to climb over bodies to get out of your business class seats and the service is so inconsistent?

YAWN

Misco60 Jan 23, 20 11:53 am


Originally Posted by wemyss (Post 31984601)
A total win-win for BA, but for QR what can they get associating themselves with a base airline where you have to climb over bodies to get out of your business class seats and the service is so inconsistent?

Well, if we're going to play that game, I could say that QR will be associating themselves with an airline whose cabin crew are real, empathetic human beings who try for the most part to make their passengers feel genuinely welcome rather than being obsequious automatons.

However, I don't think any of this has a place in a discussion about a possible joint business agreement between the two airlines, and I'd much prefer to keep to the facts.

wb1969 Jan 23, 20 12:23 pm

Lots of talk about QR not gaining from this JV but they donít offer Premium Economy so there are opportunities for BA to tap in to a new market. also far fewer Avios earned on QR than BA.

Personally hope this gets approved as I think QR are fantastic, even in Y. Every time I have flown exLHR on QR in Y the planes have only been 1/3 full so almost guaranteed spare seats to stretch out.

DFB_london Jan 23, 20 1:22 pm


Originally Posted by DYKWIA (Post 31985088)
No they are not - long haul anyway. The B787s and A350s are 1-2-1 configuration (if not Q suite).

Some of the B777s and A330s are 2-2-2, fully flat.

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/qata...ays-fleet.html

yes totally correct- all QR long haul fleet, including some A320 are fully horizontally flat.
The last sloppy went when the A330 were refurbished. (The A340-600 that went to Manila have long gone.)

At worst, on the few A330 that still run you get a flat seat similar to the AA or UA Atlantic 757 seat. Which is fine

The 350, 380 and 787 either have a 1-2-1 herringbone on Q suite. The 777LR is q suite. The 77W is either q suite or a 2-2-2 - but flat and roomy.

djsflynn Jan 23, 20 2:04 pm

If anybody wishers to peruse the actual BA/QR application to the ACCC, here 'tis: https://www.accc.gov.au/public-regis...-airways-qatar

Passmethesickbag Jan 23, 20 3:02 pm


Originally Posted by LGWClosedAgain (Post 31984733)
I'll take SIN over DOH any day.

Especially during Ramadan.

Dave Noble Jan 23, 20 4:32 pm


Originally Posted by LGWClosedAgain (Post 31984733)
I'll take SIN over DOH any day.

I can't think of many better airports for connecting at than Doha. (the only one that I prefer is Muscat). Singapore is decent, but not as good as Doha imo

ozflier Jan 23, 20 10:05 pm


Originally Posted by wemyss (Post 31984601)
A total win-win for BA, but for QR what can they get associating themselves with a base airline where you have to climb over bodies to get out of your business class seats and the service is so inconsistent?

And how could anyone compare QR's short and medium distance business class with British.
BA's euro business class is pathetic!

geronimo Jan 23, 20 10:15 pm


Originally Posted by wemyss (Post 31984601)
A total win-win for BA, but for QR what can they get associating themselves with a base airline where you have to climb over bodies to get out of your business class seats and the service is so inconsistent?

Money. They get money. Which might also explain why they are happily one of IAGís largest shareholders. 20% at the last count...

LGWClosedAgain Jan 24, 20 4:43 am


Originally Posted by Dave Noble (Post 31987197)
I can't think of many better airports for connecting at than Doha. (the only one that I prefer is Muscat). Singapore is decent, but not as good as Doha imo

I think you're in a very small minority of people who would rather connect at DOH than SIN. DOH is a chore between flights, SIN is a nice pleasant break between flights.

DYKWIA Jan 24, 20 4:50 am


Originally Posted by LGWClosedAgain (Post 31988968)
I think you're in a very small minority of people who would rather connect at DOH than SIN. DOH is a chore between flights, SIN is a nice pleasant break between flights.

Not in my experience. In the 4 times I've passed through, there has not been any security for transit passengers (I know this depends on which flight), so I've been in the lounge less than 10 minutes after leaving the plane.

Also, no messing about with the security check at the gate.

navylad Jan 24, 20 5:11 am


Originally Posted by DYKWIA (Post 31988976)
Not in my experience. In the 4 times I've passed through, there has not been any security for transit passengers (I know this depends on which flight), so I've been in the lounge less than 10 minutes after leaving the plane.

Also, no messing about with the security check at the gate.

This has never been my experience, always had security in transit (although often has bottles of water and the like in my bag which Iíve found after, which they seam to always miss).

DOH is an ok airport to transit, but I much prefer SIN, the former gives an initial good impression, but after a long layover or indeed multiple trips, you starts to feel rather Ďfakeí in my opinion, whereas Iíve generally had a very welcoming experience in SIN although my only complaint is the ugly carpet in the terminal (I concede this is a very minor point).

Meanwhile moving back on topic, this would seams commercially beneficial for both airlines and I disagree with the early threads that two airlines working together reduces completion; it can in fact increase competition if the combined effect causes an effect on the other major players. To suggest otherwise would appear to me to be rather naive.

DYKWIA Jan 24, 20 5:21 am


Originally Posted by navylad (Post 31989010)
This has never been my experience, always had security in transit (although often has bottles of water and the like in my bag which Iíve found after, which they seam to always miss).
.

Not all airports require you to remove liquids. Recently at DXB, all that needed to be taken out was laptops.

itsmeitisss Jan 24, 20 5:27 am


Originally Posted by DFB_london (Post 31986495)
yes totally correct- all QR long haul fleet, including some A320 are fully horizontally flat.
The last sloppy went when the A330 were refurbished. (The A340-600 that went to Manila have long gone.)

At worst, on the few A330 that still run you get a flat seat similar to the AA or UA Atlantic 757 seat. Which is fine

The 350, 380 and 787 either have a 1-2-1 herringbone on Q suite. The 777LR is q suite. The 77W is either q suite or a 2-2-2 - but flat and roomy.

The issue with the 2-2-2 77W is that the point at which you need to step over your neighbour is higher up their body than in CW. Also while Dine on demand is great if you are the aisle passenger and the window seat passenger is partaking you'd better be a heavy sleeper.

As far as crew are concerned they are variable, just the same as BA. From ICN to DOH i found the crew exceptional. They noted I was ill and offered to help with any medication I might need. And kept checking on me. I ate nothing and drank no alcohol, but they kept me going with plenty of hot water.I haven't been to China, lol turns out it's a chest infection with a cold on top...

IntVic Jan 24, 20 7:31 am

I mainly fly in the premium economy cabin so I will not see any benefit with Qatar.

HighwayToHEL Jan 24, 20 7:56 am


Originally Posted by wemyss (Post 31985704)
Does QR not fly to EDI? (soon to be Qsuites)

Yes. I leave BLR in about 7 hours from now (777) to DOH, then the A350 to EDI. Small matter of dinner and a few Kingfisher beers to consume first.

EDI to DOH is my favourite sector on all my journeys.

HighwayToHEL Jan 24, 20 8:02 am


Originally Posted by DYKWIA (Post 31989033)
Not all airports require you to remove liquids. Recently at DXB, all that needed to be taken out was laptops.

coming out here to BLR I went through the trial scanner at EDI. Keep EVERYTHING in bags, including liquids and laptops.

The theory is good. The reality was that my laptop bag went down the inspection channel and was sat behind a dozen others. So my normal fast track 2 minutes became 14.....

OT, I know.

JAXBA Jan 24, 20 8:25 am


Originally Posted by allturnleft (Post 31984728)
Are there definitely no new BA routes as a result of this? Does SIN-SYD get dumped?

Notice that SYD isn't included in the JV application: BA will still be flying there.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/n...ralian-flights


The agreement would encompass all of Qatar's Australian destinations

except for Sydney, which the proposal notes is already served by both BA and Qatar Airways, with the Sydney-London route "highly contested... any attempt by the Parties to co-ordinate on the routes would be quickly defeated by the other airlines who offer services on the routeÖ

sxc Jan 24, 20 10:43 pm

I donít understand why including SYD would be seen as a less chance of approval. Of all the routes they are applying for, SYD is the one that already has the most alternatives for getting to Europe. Whereas the other cities have fewer options. So wouldnít it be less likely that the other cities would be approved vs SYD?

Passmethesickbag Jan 25, 20 5:01 am


Originally Posted by sxc (Post 31992144)
I donít understand why including SYD would be seen as a less chance of approval. Of all the routes they are applying for, SYD is the one that already has the most alternatives for getting to Europe. Whereas the other cities have fewer options. So wouldnít it be less likely that the other cities would be approved vs SYD?

I imagine that BA might not want to undermine the viability of their own route.


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