Possible reduction of APD on UK domestic flights to save Flybe - impact on BA
Jan 15, 2020, 4:19 am
#106
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 89
The BBC article said he is willing to do without assistance - if so, surely bring it on and do it anyway? Does he need permission? (Summer only)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51117885
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51117885
Jan 15, 2020, 4:24 am
#107
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,838
I’m not sure it’s as simple as incompetence. Subsidising outside the south east of England, whilst anathema to some, is certainly worthy of discussion. Particularly given the economic shitstorm the UK is about to head into.
Jan 15, 2020, 4:35 am
#108
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,364
If there is a deferral of payment of tax due by FlyBE to HMRC, that would prima facie constitute state aid. As to exempting, or reducing, APD on domestic flights only, I would have thought that it would fall foul of EU internal market law as discriminatory if comparable UK-EU flights are not included in the exemption/reduction.
Jan 15, 2020, 4:39 am
#109
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: KOI
Programs: BA
Posts: 309
The above left example is simply as the KOI-GLA legs are subject to ADS and as such you get a discount for those flights for ADS membership. On top of this you would also get the APD exemption. The example on the right would only get the APD discount as it leaves from KOI but is available to everyone. The two APD & APS remain as separate things.
If you where to start at INV then ADS would not help you as INV-LHR flights are not subject to ADS discounts. But you would still get APD exemption.
If you where to start at INV then ADS would not help you as INV-LHR flights are not subject to ADS discounts. But you would still get APD exemption.
Jan 15, 2020, 4:43 am
#110
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
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specifically post 3, Aberdeen is not in the list
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...tions-from-apd
APD exemptions:
3.2.3 Scottish Highlands and Islands
Passengers carried on flights departing from airports in the Scottish Highlands and Islands region are not chargeable passengers.
This area is defined as:
the Highland Region, Western Isles Islands Area, Orkney Islands Area, Shetland Islands Area, Argyll and Bute District, Arran, Great Cumbrae and Little Cumbrae, and in the Moray District, the parishes of Aberlour, Cabrach, Dallas, Dyke, Edinkillie, Forres, Inveravon, Kinloss, Kirkmichael, Knockando, Mortlach, Rafford and Rothes
APD exemptions:
3.2.3 Scottish Highlands and Islands
Passengers carried on flights departing from airports in the Scottish Highlands and Islands region are not chargeable passengers.
This area is defined as:
the Highland Region, Western Isles Islands Area, Orkney Islands Area, Shetland Islands Area, Argyll and Bute District, Arran, Great Cumbrae and Little Cumbrae, and in the Moray District, the parishes of Aberlour, Cabrach, Dallas, Dyke, Edinkillie, Forres, Inveravon, Kinloss, Kirkmichael, Knockando, Mortlach, Rafford and Rothes
Last edited by KARFA; Jan 15, 2020 at 4:50 am
Jan 15, 2020, 4:58 am
#111
Join Date: Oct 2017
Programs: Honors Diamond
Posts: 1,639
The BBC article said he is willing to do without assistance - if so, surely bring it on and do it anyway? Does he need permission? (Summer only)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51117885
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51117885
it from the radio this morning.
Jan 15, 2020, 4:59 am
#112
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: RTW
Posts: 677
What other regional carriers? Loganair? Who else? Don’t Eastern Airways survive on charter business and operating for FlyBe?
I’m not sure it’s as simple as incompetence. Subsidising outside the south east of England, whilst anathema to some, is certainly worthy of discussion. Particularly given the economic shitstorm the UK is about to head into.
I’m not sure it’s as simple as incompetence. Subsidising outside the south east of England, whilst anathema to some, is certainly worthy of discussion. Particularly given the economic shitstorm the UK is about to head into.
Jan 15, 2020, 5:09 am
#114
Join Date: Oct 2017
Programs: Honors Diamond
Posts: 1,639
I see that but from the government’s perspective regional connectivity and airports were at risk. They have managed to do a deal with Delta/Virgin and the rest of the investors to preserve it (for now). You can argue that the investors should have seen this coming but they didn’t and we are where we are. Given that context I doubt government will be particularly pleased with Walsh complaining about it when he/IAG isn’t prepared to offer a solution to their problem beyond some summer-only flights between London and Newquay.
Jan 15, 2020, 5:24 am
#115
Join Date: Mar 2016
Programs: BAEC, Ib+, Accor, HHonors
Posts: 609
Jan 15, 2020, 6:46 am
#116
Fontaine d'honneur du Flyertalk
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I actually think that a potentially dangerous precedent has been set. This was money collected for the Government from the passengers, I think that the shareholders or administrators of Thomas Cook and Monarch have every justification to shout foul
Jan 15, 2020, 6:51 am
#117
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: LHR/ATH
Programs: Amex Platinum, LH SEN (Gold), BA Bronze
Posts: 4,489
I don't think UK govt cares about Greta, more about small business and countryside routes. I think they should just remove APD on domestic flights all together ( a better way of subsidising routes without physically using taxpayer money) will make the conservative govt look good for tax cuts which is what most people want anyway.
Last edited by ahmetdouas; Jan 15, 2020 at 6:59 am
Jan 15, 2020, 6:54 am
#118
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: UK
Programs: BA Silver, IHG Platinum
Posts: 941
Thomas Cook and Monarch, much as I was sad to see them go, had no strategic importance unfortunately. Flybe for all of its faults does.
I'm generally minded towards not bailing out failing or failed businesses, but I can see why a distinction is made.
However (and it is a big however), big questions need to be asked of Virgin here. Why haven't they intervened more forcefully, and if the government does provide support what are they going to do going forward? It would be ridiculous if the government stepped in to save regional connections and Virgin canned much of the network regardless.
I'm generally minded towards not bailing out failing or failed businesses, but I can see why a distinction is made.
However (and it is a big however), big questions need to be asked of Virgin here. Why haven't they intervened more forcefully, and if the government does provide support what are they going to do going forward? It would be ridiculous if the government stepped in to save regional connections and Virgin canned much of the network regardless.
Jan 15, 2020, 6:57 am
#119
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: LHR/ATH
Programs: Amex Platinum, LH SEN (Gold), BA Bronze
Posts: 4,489
Thomas Cook and Monarch, much as I was sad to see them go, had no strategic importance unfortunately. Flybe for all of its faults does.
I'm generally minded towards not bailing out failing or failed businesses, but I can see why a distinction is made.
However (and it is a big however), big questions need to be asked of Virgin here. Why haven't they intervened more forcefully, and if the government does provide support what are they going to do going forward? It would be ridiculous if the government stepped in to save regional connections and Virgin canned much of the network regardless.
I'm generally minded towards not bailing out failing or failed businesses, but I can see why a distinction is made.
However (and it is a big however), big questions need to be asked of Virgin here. Why haven't they intervened more forcefully, and if the government does provide support what are they going to do going forward? It would be ridiculous if the government stepped in to save regional connections and Virgin canned much of the network regardless.
If it went towards Administration, perhaps then they might have intervened, who knows, maybe even have let it gone down and bought its assets out and call it Virgin Regional?
Jan 15, 2020, 7:03 am
#120
Join Date: Oct 2013
Programs: BA Gold, VS Gold, IHG Platinum, Hilton Gold, Hertz Presidents Circle.
Posts: 1,447
Interesting Willie Walsh is moaning about the bail out this morning saying its anti-competitive.
I find this a bit rich as BA bailed on its regional operations when it sold BA connect.
But as others have said where is Virgin et al in all this ; have they lumped any money in; are they operating Flybe at arms length. No attempt at rebranding has happened yet or that much rationalisation of services. There has been little detail on this in the press
I find this a bit rich as BA bailed on its regional operations when it sold BA connect.
But as others have said where is Virgin et al in all this ; have they lumped any money in; are they operating Flybe at arms length. No attempt at rebranding has happened yet or that much rationalisation of services. There has been little detail on this in the press
I'm struggling to think of many routes BA and FlyBe compete on at all, let alone FlyBe routes BA would like to pick up.