Jan 1, 2020, 2:30 am
Last edit by: Prospero
The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
787 cancellations due to Trent engine issues - CEDR ruling information from the post in the 2018 thread and onwards.
For the 2019 thread:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1948451-2019-ba-compensation-thread-your-guide-regulation-ec261-2004-a.html
Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
787 cancellations due to Trent engine issues - CEDR ruling information from the post in the 2018 thread and onwards.
For the 2019 thread:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1948451-2019-ba-compensation-thread-your-guide-regulation-ec261-2004-a.html
The 2020 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Jan 31, 2020, 2:12 am
#106
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 7
Private Pilot DR40. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post and for the advice. It is much appreciated. This is a great thread and resource.
Jan 31, 2020, 6:51 am
#107
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: BCN Spain
Programs: AF P, BA G, A3 *G, EK G
Posts: 73
Hello,
I was on flight BA 269 to LAX on Wednesday the 29th Jan. I received an email from BA before I left home informing me "due to essential engineering work being carried out on the aircraft the estimated departure would move from 15.30 to 17.30." At 17.30 the plane was still not ready for boarding. I saw the crew make their way to the plane and then saw them back in the departure gate and then head back towards the plane.
We were told that the further delay to our departure was due to the plane being cleaned and the crew needing to do security checks.
When we boarded the plane we were told that we were waiting for a tug. Then a crew member had run out of time and we were waiting for a replacement crew member. They boarded and the captain announced we were then waiting for the tug again.
The 15.30 eventually left Heathrow just after 8pm. I put in a claim for the late arrival of the aircraft in LAX 10.46pm instead of 6.50pm.
I was told that my claim was denied as the delay was due to "aircraft control restrictions being in place over a block of airspace my aircraft intended to travel". Hmmm that is not what information we received via email and from the Captain.
Is there anyway I can take this forward? BA customer relations seem adamant that it was due to air traffic control.
I was on flight BA 269 to LAX on Wednesday the 29th Jan. I received an email from BA before I left home informing me "due to essential engineering work being carried out on the aircraft the estimated departure would move from 15.30 to 17.30." At 17.30 the plane was still not ready for boarding. I saw the crew make their way to the plane and then saw them back in the departure gate and then head back towards the plane.
We were told that the further delay to our departure was due to the plane being cleaned and the crew needing to do security checks.
When we boarded the plane we were told that we were waiting for a tug. Then a crew member had run out of time and we were waiting for a replacement crew member. They boarded and the captain announced we were then waiting for the tug again.
The 15.30 eventually left Heathrow just after 8pm. I put in a claim for the late arrival of the aircraft in LAX 10.46pm instead of 6.50pm.
I was told that my claim was denied as the delay was due to "aircraft control restrictions being in place over a block of airspace my aircraft intended to travel". Hmmm that is not what information we received via email and from the Captain.
Is there anyway I can take this forward? BA customer relations seem adamant that it was due to air traffic control.
Thanks for contacting us about your claim for EU compensation for your flight BA0269 to Los Angeles on 29 January in World Traveller Plus.
We're sorry it was necessary to delay your flight. Your claim's under EU Regulation has been refused because your flight has been delayed due to Air Traffic control decisions, caused by a taxiway congestion. As this is outside of British Airways control, according with EU Regulation there is no EU compensation due, under these circumstances. I´m sorry to disappoint you.
Thank you for your reply.
I know you feel misled by us towards our decision under EU Regulation, particularly as the pilot has narrated all the incidents. However, let me explain to you how we end up with this decision. Whenever there is a flight delay, the pilot issue a dedicated flight report, where all the reasons behind the delay are included. Usually, there is more than one reason that makes an aircraft miss the departure slot and, in this case the major reason behind this delay was indeed a taxiway traffic congestion.
We’re very proud at British Airways that we comply fully with EU regulations and will always fully compensate our customers when a valid claim is made. All claims sent to us are thoroughly investigated and we’re very experienced in assessing claims and have a vast knowledge of EU legislation. It’s certainly not in either of our interests for us not to comply as we always hope that despite the inconveniences our customers have experienced on their journey that they will fly with us again. By denying valid claims would only frustrate and annoy our customers even further.
We're sorry it was necessary to delay your flight. Your claim's under EU Regulation has been refused because your flight has been delayed due to Air Traffic control decisions, caused by a taxiway congestion. As this is outside of British Airways control, according with EU Regulation there is no EU compensation due, under these circumstances. I´m sorry to disappoint you.
Thank you for your reply.
I know you feel misled by us towards our decision under EU Regulation, particularly as the pilot has narrated all the incidents. However, let me explain to you how we end up with this decision. Whenever there is a flight delay, the pilot issue a dedicated flight report, where all the reasons behind the delay are included. Usually, there is more than one reason that makes an aircraft miss the departure slot and, in this case the major reason behind this delay was indeed a taxiway traffic congestion.
We’re very proud at British Airways that we comply fully with EU regulations and will always fully compensate our customers when a valid claim is made. All claims sent to us are thoroughly investigated and we’re very experienced in assessing claims and have a vast knowledge of EU legislation. It’s certainly not in either of our interests for us not to comply as we always hope that despite the inconveniences our customers have experienced on their journey that they will fly with us again. By denying valid claims would only frustrate and annoy our customers even further.
Jan 31, 2020, 7:00 am
#108
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,212
What they’re trying to do is to say that the engineering component of the delay - or anyway the part of the delay that they can be on the hook for - has a duration lower than the EC261 threshold.
Jan 31, 2020, 7:13 am
#109
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,726
This has the hallmark of "our answer will not change", so I would suggest that those affected ask for confirmation of that and go off to CEDR. I'm surprised how quick BA has responded (and replied a second time) on this.
Jan 31, 2020, 7:21 am
#110
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,212
And I think my reply would be that if BA had organised themselves a bit better in respect of the engineering aspect, by any reasonable measure (let alone all) BA would have prevented such a long delay.
This has the hallmark of "our answer will not change", so I would suggest that those affected ask for confirmation of that and go off to CEDR. I'm surprised how quick BA has responded (and replied a second time) on this.
This has the hallmark of "our answer will not change", so I would suggest that those affected ask for confirmation of that and go off to CEDR. I'm surprised how quick BA has responded (and replied a second time) on this.
Jan 31, 2020, 7:33 am
#111
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: A3*G,BA Silver
Posts: 2,010
13901 i think they just copy and paste the same email they sent to everyone apart from changing the flight details. It is quite obvious if you have worked for a big company/institution etc.
Jan 31, 2020, 8:36 am
#112
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 447
From various reading, I think I know the answer to this, and have put my conclusions at the end of this post, but I'd be interested to hear out others' opinions.
Two family members were booked MCT-LHR in F on a 2-4-1 on a Saturday in November. A few days before flying, the aircraft was changed to a plane with no F cabin.
They received an e-mail, which suggested they had seats in CW and that they should call.
Family member called to confirm changes, and was told there was no seating in CW or WT+ and that they would have to take seats in WT if they wanted to travel on that plane (!).
Flying in WT was a no go, and this was refused.
BA offered a pair of seats in CW on the Sunday - this didn't work for the pax so was refused.
Pax offered to fly back on the Friday - losing a day of holiday - as a compromise. Long story short, one seat in CW and one in WT+ was confirmed, and within an hour a second CW seat was confirmed.
Pax flew back in CW on the Friday.
BA sent a 4-figure eVoucher to cover the downgrade. This was neither accepted nor rejected by the pax, but a later email from BA confirmed that "The eVoucher was given as a gesture of goodwill". No option for a cash refund/compensation was offered.
The terms of the voucher mean that it is near enough useless to these pax.
My understanding is that this was involuntary downgrade under EU261, and the pax are due a cash compensation under EU261. It seems like this would need to go to CEDR as BA will almost definitely refuse any claim before then.
Is this correct?
(and this is all before we crack open the can of worms that is calculating how much the compensations should be!)
Two family members were booked MCT-LHR in F on a 2-4-1 on a Saturday in November. A few days before flying, the aircraft was changed to a plane with no F cabin.
They received an e-mail, which suggested they had seats in CW and that they should call.
Family member called to confirm changes, and was told there was no seating in CW or WT+ and that they would have to take seats in WT if they wanted to travel on that plane (!).
Flying in WT was a no go, and this was refused.
BA offered a pair of seats in CW on the Sunday - this didn't work for the pax so was refused.
Pax offered to fly back on the Friday - losing a day of holiday - as a compromise. Long story short, one seat in CW and one in WT+ was confirmed, and within an hour a second CW seat was confirmed.
Pax flew back in CW on the Friday.
BA sent a 4-figure eVoucher to cover the downgrade. This was neither accepted nor rejected by the pax, but a later email from BA confirmed that "The eVoucher was given as a gesture of goodwill". No option for a cash refund/compensation was offered.
The terms of the voucher mean that it is near enough useless to these pax.
My understanding is that this was involuntary downgrade under EU261, and the pax are due a cash compensation under EU261. It seems like this would need to go to CEDR as BA will almost definitely refuse any claim before then.
Is this correct?
(and this is all before we crack open the can of worms that is calculating how much the compensations should be!)
Jan 31, 2020, 9:48 am
#113
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,726
My understanding is that this was involuntary downgrade under EU261, and the pax are due a cash compensation under EU261. It seems like this would need to go to CEDR as BA will almost definitely refuse any claim before then.
Is this correct?
(and this is all before we crack open the can of worms that is calculating how much the compensations should be!)
Is this correct?
(and this is all before we crack open the can of worms that is calculating how much the compensations should be!)
My understanding of e-vouchers is that they can be used by person X to book for passenger Y (not just X). So it would be a bit surprising if they really can't use the voucher. But if it is useless, then send it back, but BA are entitled to show goodwill by whatever mechanism they choose.
Jan 31, 2020, 3:53 pm
#114
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA: EXP Hilton: Gold, SPG: Gold, Hyatt: Plat
Posts: 196
@Happychick and @want2beaqui
I was also on BA269 on 29 Jan and BA has already approved my 600 euros with zero pushback. Don't give up!
I was also on BA269 on 29 Jan and BA has already approved my 600 euros with zero pushback. Don't give up!
Feb 1, 2020, 12:40 am
#115
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: PHX, SEA
Programs: Avis President's Club, Global Entry, Hilton/Marriott Gold. No more DL/AA status.
Posts: 4,421
Now that Brexit has occurred, will BA operated flights still be covered under EC261? How about flights departing the UK on other (ie American) carriers?
Feb 1, 2020, 12:53 am
#116
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,726
No changes, EC261 has long been UK law and will remain so until Parliament changes the law. There is no such law change in the Queen's Speech, nor is there anything being drafted.
Feb 1, 2020, 1:50 am
#117
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: PHX, SEA
Programs: Avis President's Club, Global Entry, Hilton/Marriott Gold. No more DL/AA status.
Posts: 4,421
Feb 3, 2020, 6:08 am
#118
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 5
Trent 1000 Success
Today I received the decision from the CEDR adjudicator, and I have been awarded my EC 261 claim in full! Thanks again for your help, and I will try to help others here in the future should BA continue trying to use the RR engine issue to avoid paying legally required compensation.
Cheers,
kellyseamus
Cheers,
kellyseamus
Feb 3, 2020, 6:18 am
#119
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,726
It may be helpful to put the CEDR judgement wording here if you can, redacting any personal details. There are a few other cases going through the system at the moment, so I think BA have made a policy decision to decline all cases unless CEDR force them to do otherwise, case by case.
Feb 3, 2020, 8:15 am
#120
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 250
Sorry if this has been answered, I have tried to google it. If I buy a ticket for example on Qatar from DOH to LHR and then onwards to MAN all on one ticket with QR PNR. First segment is flown by Qatar and last with BA. First flight is on QR code and last with BA code.
If the QR flight lands on time and the BA flight is cancelled due to lack of crew. Will this be applicable for EU261? QR is not an EU airline flying into EU, but if we have a connection does that matter?
If I am due some EU261, would they then look at the distance between DOH and MAN or LHR and MAN? Let us say we where 3.5h late on scheduled arrival.
If the QR flight lands on time and the BA flight is cancelled due to lack of crew. Will this be applicable for EU261? QR is not an EU airline flying into EU, but if we have a connection does that matter?
If I am due some EU261, would they then look at the distance between DOH and MAN or LHR and MAN? Let us say we where 3.5h late on scheduled arrival.
