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The 2020 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

Old Jan 1, 20, 3:30 am
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The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format

Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
787 cancellations due to Trent engine issues - CEDR ruling information from the post in the 2018 thread and onwards.

For the 2019 thread:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1948451-2019-ba-compensation-thread-your-guide-regulation-ec261-2004-a.html

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The 2020 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

Old Oct 22, 20, 6:08 am
  #406  
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Originally Posted by Jh1978 View Post
Are we entitled to anything?
If you are downgraded then you are entitled to the downgrade reimbursement formula mentioned above, which has a 75% reimbursement start point but is then subject to the Mennens formula (see wiki). However you will only get this after you have completed travel, after all much could change between now and the end of your booking. For CCT, you could ask YouFirst if they will allow access as a gesture, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.
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Old Oct 22, 20, 6:20 am
  #407  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
This isn't an EC261 issue, so we are off to BA's policies. Certainly in the past YouFirst has been willing to look at moving flights when First is cancelled, using commercial space if needed. There is a specific policy that covers this if your flight gets cancelled, and there is a big chance this will happen to one or both legs, but custom/practice has been to allow this. But there are all sorts of complexities here - this isn't a route where First can be guaranteed, what if there are further travel restrictions, what if BA changes policies, or even drops the route? So personally I would only move flights if you were sure you would be travelling, and if not it would be better to wait and see what happens. If you enter into a dialogue with BA on this too soon, you may find yourself boxed in by the available options.
Thank you as always, I shall take your advice and sit tight and see what happens
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Old Oct 23, 20, 8:27 am
  #408  
 
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I know what the answer is likely to be but here goes.

Ive just had my NQY flights cancelled 13 days before departure. Its a domestic route and I cant see any reason other than commercial reasons as to why this was cancelled. They were also due to operate daily subsidised flights under a Government agreement. Any grounds for compensation?
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Old Oct 23, 20, 8:32 am
  #409  
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Originally Posted by BAeuro View Post
I know what the answer is likely to be but here goes.

Ive just had my NQY flights cancelled 13 days before departure. Its a domestic route and I cant see any reason other than commercial reasons as to why this was cancelled. They were also due to operate daily subsidised flights under a Government agreement. Any grounds for compensation?
You are basically going to end up arguing with BA about whether the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. BA will invoke coronavirus I am sure. Your argument would be that nothing in relation to that route has changed with regard to coronavirus for weeks if not months. Even with the tier system in England those in tier 2/3 would still be able to visit Newquay. I think you would have to at least go to CEDR/MCOL for any chance of success.
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Old Oct 23, 20, 8:39 am
  #410  
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Originally Posted by BAeuro View Post
I know what the answer is likely to be but here goes.

Ive just had my NQY flights cancelled 13 days before departure. Its a domestic route and I cant see any reason other than commercial reasons as to why this was cancelled. They were also due to operate daily subsidised flights under a Government agreement. Any grounds for compensation?
It's a little bit like saying 'my flight was canceled due to weather but I'm looking out the window and it looks fine to me'. What does ExpertFlyer say for the reason for the cancellation?
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Old Oct 23, 20, 8:42 am
  #411  
 
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Originally Posted by golfmad View Post
It's a little bit like saying 'my flight was canceled due to weather but I'm looking out the window and it looks fine to me'. What does ExpertFlyer say for the reason for the cancellation?
This isnt a one off cancellation though. Theyre reducing the route to 2x weekly for all of November. This is a planned commercial decision not anything unexpected.

And I dont know how to get that info on EF for a flight 13 days in advance.
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Old Oct 23, 20, 8:45 am
  #412  
 
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Originally Posted by KARFA View Post
You are basically going to end up arguing with BA about whether the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. BA will invoke coronavirus I am sure. Your argument would be that nothing in relation to that route has changed with regard to coronavirus for weeks if not months. Even with the tier system in England those in tier 2/3 would still be able to visit Newquay. I think you would have to at least go to CEDR/MCOL for any chance of success.
Thanks KARFA.

I dont want to seem petty but I feel if Im entitled to it I should claim it. I dont want to get into an argument with BA though so if they dont offer it after my claim Ill just back down.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 1:07 pm
  #413  
 
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Apologies if a similar question has been asked.

Our BKK flights have been cancelled today, just over a week before departure. I'm fully expecting BA to invoke the Covid-19 excuse to argue that this is due to extraordinary circumstance that could not have been avoided. I'm looking to at last request the compensation and see how it goes.

If this goes to CEDR, how would one demonstrate that BA could not offer a suitable reroute (under the 2 hr before scheduled departure and 4 hour hour scheduled arrival rule)? MMB gives me no alternative option. I've not phoned BA yet but not expecting an agent to offer a suitable reroute either. Would I need to request a confirmation of this in writing as evidence?

Much appreciated.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 1:35 pm
  #414  
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Originally Posted by Whitstabubble View Post
If this goes to CEDR, how would one demonstrate that BA could not offer a suitable reroute (under the 2 hr before scheduled departure and 4 hour hour scheduled arrival rule)? MMB gives me no alternative option. I've not phoned BA yet but not expecting an agent to offer a suitable reroute either. Would I need to request a confirmation of this in writing as evidence?
Just take some screenshots of MMB, though you best leave it a day or two if it has just happened, MMB doesn't immediately update in these circumstances. I doubt you will have any pushback on this particular detail, by all means ring BA in a few days and ask if they do have any customer guidelines that allow you to leave at a similar timing, then make a near contemporary record of what was said. Because BA's policies are relatively well known, and often discussed in great detail in this forum, then again I doubt that will be an evidential issue. You may want to take some screenshots of alternative airlines that are operating the service and to which BA could, but won't, move you.

The debate won't hinge on this sort of detail, it will hinge on whether BA can rely on cancellations as being extraordinary, so that's the area you need to focus your attention.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 2:41 pm
  #415  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
This is part of EC261, see the Right To Care arrticles or the main thread on EC261 in this forum. I suspect any claim for 5 days would be heavily scrutinised for reasonableness.
There is a little misunderstanding.
Let's say that the original flight departure is on 10 November 2020 and the system will move the flight to 11 November 2020. You are notified about the date change on 28 October 2020.
Are you sure that after you have flown you can ask to BA to reimburse the hotel for the extra night?

I'm totally sure that there is no problem to ask to reimburse the hotel for one or more extra nights if the delay or cancellation will happen when you are at the airport and airline will rebook you on a flight the next day/s
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Old Oct 24, 20, 3:15 pm
  #416  
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Originally Posted by jorun View Post
There is a little misunderstanding.
Let's say that the original flight departure is on 10 November 2020 and the system will move the flight to 11 November 2020. You are notified about the date change on 28 October 2020.
Are you sure that after you have flown you can ask to BA to reimburse the hotel for the extra night?
In the past BA have certainly paid up in this scenario, and I don't think they have a choice about that, there isn't any advance notice timelines mentioned in Article 9, Right to Care. There is a timeline in terms of rescheduling of flights (2 weeks, to simplify), so EC261 would have mentioned that if it was relevant for Right to Care. Now I have no doubt that BA are going to do their best to stop unnecessary expenditure, but there is no get-out clause on Right to Care, or rather if they re-routed people on other airlines they could mitigate this, they generally choose not to do so. I say generally, since if you end up in a hotel and it happens to be a route which has a rerouting policy, e.g. involving Iberia, then obviously you wouldn't be well place to argue BA refusal to pay up. There are a range of assumptions I am making here (e.g. you don't live in the city where the delay happens).
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Old Oct 25, 20, 2:12 am
  #417  
 
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Originally Posted by BAeuro View Post
I know what the answer is likely to be but here goes.

I’ve just had my NQY flights cancelled 13 days before departure. It’s a domestic route and I can’t see any reason other than commercial reasons as to why this was cancelled. They were also due to operate daily subsidised flights under a Government agreement. Any grounds for compensation?
Similarly I am meant to by flying IBZ-LHR-GRU on 5 Nov (11 days away) with complicated connections at GRU
This was booked within the 14 day window to be certain that things would go ahead
The IBZ sector was withdrawn from sale 3 hours after I booked it and has not yet been cancelled in the system so I am stuck with a cancelled flight and unable to re-arrange anything and am a bit frantic
What chances of getting EU261? COVID is a known issue and they should not be cancelling flights right up to departure using it as an excuse.
Alternatively what is the chance of them letting me drop the first sector to start at LHR (given they have dropped it anyway) ?

On my separate outbound flight to IBZ they called up to process the charge a day AFTER the flight had been withdrawn from sale but not yet cancelled.

I find it very difficult to book with BA now as they just mess you around -they encourage you to book with mega-sales than almost immediately cancel the flights and leave you with a problem

Last edited by WeLoveSpace; Oct 25, 20 at 2:15 am Reason: Add final point
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Old Oct 25, 20, 2:16 am
  #418  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
In the past BA have certainly paid up in this scenario, and I don't think they have a choice about that, there isn't any advance notice timelines mentioned in Article 9, Right to Care. There is a timeline in terms of rescheduling of flights (2 weeks, to simplify), so EC261 would have mentioned that if it was relevant for Right to Care. Now I have no doubt that BA are going to do their best to stop unnecessary expenditure, but there is no get-out clause on Right to Care, or rather if they re-routed people on other airlines they could mitigate this, they generally choose not to do so. I say generally, since if you end up in a hotel and it happens to be a route which has a rerouting policy, e.g. involving Iberia, then obviously you wouldn't be well place to argue BA refusal to pay up. There are a range of assumptions I am making here (e.g. you don't live in the city where the delay happens).
I see your point. That's why I asked in the first place if you were referring to a BA policy or the EU 261/2004. Actually there isn't still a sentence by CJEU and many airlines do whatever they want in regard to the interpretation of the right to care if the cancellation is notified days before the departure (although, as you correctly wrote, there is no timeline in the regulation for the right to care). Few times it happened to me that the airline (not BA) moved the flight the next day, notified me far in advance (i.e. one month before departure), and always denied any hotel reimbursement for the extra night even I quoted the EU regulation.

What do you think about the recital 12, 14 and article 5 paragraph 3? My interpretation is that if the airline cancels the trip due to a true extraordinary circumstance but they refuse to offer any kind of re-route (you can easily proof that there are other flights the same date or the day/s after), you are entitled to the compensation because they didn't take all the reasonable measures to avoid the event.
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Old Oct 25, 20, 3:07 am
  #419  
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Originally Posted by jorun View Post
What do you think about the recital 12, 14 and article 5 paragraph 3? My interpretation is that if the airline cancels the trip due to a true extraordinary circumstance but they refuse to offer any kind of re-route (you can easily proof that there are other flights the same date or the day/s after), you are entitled to the compensation because they didn't take all the reasonable measures to avoid the event.
if your flight was cancelled within 14 days of travel then whether compensation is due relates to the reason fro that cancellation and whether that cancellation was caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.

If they do not offer a reroute that could be in breach of their obligations but that does not in itself give rise to any compensation, although you may be able to rebook yourself and attempt to claim the cost back from the airline.

reroute and compensation under article 5 are separate issues.
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Old Oct 25, 20, 3:15 am
  #420  
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Originally Posted by jorun View Post
I see your point. That's why I asked in the first place if you were referring to a BA policy or the EU 261/2004. Actually there isn't still a sentence by CJEU and many airlines do whatever they want in regard to the interpretation of the right to care if the cancellation is notified days before the departure (although, as you correctly wrote, there is no timeline in the regulation for the right to care). Few times it happened to me that the airline (not BA) moved the flight the next day, notified me far in advance (i.e. one month before departure), and always denied any hotel reimbursement for the extra night even I quoted the EU regulation.

What do you think about the recital 12, 14 and article 5 paragraph 3? My interpretation is that if the airline cancels the trip due to a true extraordinary circumstance but they refuse to offer any kind of re-route (you can easily proof that there are other flights the same date or the day/s after), you are entitled to the compensation because they didn't take all the reasonable measures to avoid the event.
I make a distinction between what airlines try to do, and what courts and alternative dispute resolution services will actually rule. Cases only get to CJEU when lower courts get appeals on interpretation. I have heard of a case recently where BA tried to argue that needing an extra night in a hotel was a consequential loss, but I would be surprised if MCOL or CEDR would back that, moreover there is plenty of evidence in this forum where BA generally has paid for hotel accommodation without quibble. Sending cases to CEDR is fairly simple, I often advocate here that once BA have said "no", to stop arguing with BA and get it to MCOL or CEDR quickly.

For the reasonable measures, this is a better example where BA doesn't read the whole "extraordinary circumstances" clause, which indeed includes an "all reasonable measures" requirement. BA isn't alone in doing this. At least in terms of CEDR there are quite a few rulings upthread (e.g. the 787 issue) where CEDR have said "yes, extraordinary circumstances but you didn't take all reasonable measures" (e.g. hiring in a new aircraft). There are some CJEU rulings in this area (e.g. birdstrike). There isn't a specific right to be re-routed on other aircraft, BA tend to only do that with cancellations done with less than 24 hours, but there are some guidelines from the CAA indicating that for short haul, delays should not exceed 24 hours. This isn't the law, any more than any of the other guidelines issued, but may help in interpretation arguments.
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