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-   -   WT Hand Baggage Fare Seat Selection Con? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1998873-wt-hand-baggage-fare-seat-selection-con.html)

Oil-man Dec 8, 19 8:57 am

WT Hand Baggage Fare Seat Selection Con?
 
Travelling on my own dime on BA11 from LHR-SIN last week (hand baggage fare for a long weekend trip). I was assigned a window seat at the back of the plane on the lower deck. It’s not great having to climb over up to two people for 13 hours, but that’s the luck of the draw - or so I thought.

As usual, I was offered to select my seat (and pay £59 IIRC for an aisle seat) and I was offered around 10-15 alternatives (not all aisle seats). All remaining 280+ out of 299 economy seats where crossed out and not for selection. This I believe gave the impression that the flight was nearly full in economy.

However, the booking class on the day of travel for economy was still the lowest available, so I expected the flight to be quiet, so thought I’d take my chance to get an aisle seat on board rather than paying £59.

In the end, the flight itself was less than half full in economy, and I snagged a whole row of 4 in the middle to myself (poor mans business class!).

This left a sour taste in my mouth. The way the seat selection was presented by BA was a con in my opinion, with the only objective to get people into parting with their hard earned cash unnecessarily.

Sharp practise by BA IMO.

madfish Dec 8, 19 9:06 am

Nobody forced you to pay for a seat. Where does it say anywhere that the seats that you are shown are all that are available. There are various ways of checking what is actually available.

Oil-man Dec 8, 19 9:16 am


Originally Posted by madfish (Post 31818294)
There are various ways of checking what is actually available.

Enlighten me please, beyond what I can find out what booking class is available.

Oil-man Dec 8, 19 9:19 am


Originally Posted by madfish (Post 31818294)
Nobody forced you to pay for a seat.

Your right, and I didn’t, but I’m not impressed by your tone unless you are a BA revenue agent.

The purpose of my post (as well as a bit of a moan) is to make people aware, as these threads are fully searchable on the internet.

Hopefully I can save people a few quid over the years, and keep it out of BA’s grabbing hands. Knowledge is power.

Misco60 Dec 8, 19 9:20 am


Originally Posted by madfish (Post 31818294)
Nobody forced you to pay for a seat. Where does it say anywhere that the seats that you are shown are all that are available.

I have little doubt that the seat map shown to passengers willing to pay for a seat is carefully designed to give the impression that the flight is busy and, in true BA style, to gouge as much money out of the customer as possible.

My own experiences on BA, as a status passenger, have almost always been good but I'm beginning to see how it looks from the perspective of your average non-status passenger and it leaves a very unpleasant taste.

orbitmic Dec 8, 19 9:35 am


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818268)
Travelling on my own dime on BA11 from LHR-SIN last week (hand baggage fare for a long weekend trip). I was assigned a window seat at the back of the plane on the lower deck. It’s not great having to climb over up to two people for 13 hours, but that’s the luck of the draw - or so I thought.

As usual, I was offered to select my seat (and pay £59 IIRC for an aisle seat) and I was offered around 10-15 alternatives (not all aisle seats). All remaining 280+ out of 299 economy seats where crossed out and not for selection. This I believe gave the impression that the flight was nearly full in economy.

However, the booking class on the day of travel for economy was still the lowest available, so I expected the flight to be quiet, so thought I’d take my chance to get an aisle seat on board rather than paying £59.

In the end, the flight itself was less than half full in economy, and I snagged a whole row of 4 in the middle to myself (poor mans business class!).

This left a sour taste in my mouth. The way the seat selection was presented by BA was a con in my opinion, with the only objective to get people into parting with their hard earned cash unnecessarily.

Sharp practise by BA IMO.

This is not a con nor related to your buying a HBO fare. you should just look up the thread on theoretical searing and you’ll understand exactly why only a small sub-selection of empty seats was offered to you.

ps: plus the argument makes little sense: if ba wanted to tempt you they’d offer as many seats as possible for you to choose in order to tempt you. People know others will check in too so you could have a tonne of seats to choose from even in a cabin that will be sold out. Listing few for sale would just increase the risk customers won’t be offered something they want to buy.

corporate-wage-slave Dec 8, 19 9:37 am


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818268)
In the end, the flight itself was less than half full in economy, and I snagged a whole row of 4 in the middle to myself (poor mans business class!).

This left a sour taste in my mouth. The way the seat selection was presented by BA was a con in my opinion, with the only objective to get people into parting with their hard earned cash unnecessarily.

Given your status you should have got free seat selection, but from what I've been told it's rare for people to book Basic fares and pay for seat selection - the point of these fares is essentially to save money. BA offer seats for a fee (to those without status on restricted tickets) but to some extent they don't push it - at least compared to those airlines that send out nag notifications and emails.

However luckily there is Flyertalk and we have an existing thread in this forum where people can check how busy their flight is. ExpertFlyer gives a more accurate view than the seat plan on BA.com

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/brit...ght-loads.html

Oil-man Dec 8, 19 9:44 am

So, I’ve just checked in for BA12 back to LHR tomorrow night.

I’ve been ‘randomly’ assigned a middle seat on the lower deck of economy. Once again I was given the option to select a seat for a fee.

Of the 299 economy available, once again I’ve been offered around 15 seats to choose from (with only one seat on the less popular lower deck!). The remaining 280+ economy seats are not for selection.

I know the flight is booking into discount economy class N (same as the outbound) for any new ticket booked today. Therefore, it should be a relatively quiet flight in economy and BA are trying to pull a fast one again.

Oil-man Dec 8, 19 9:50 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 31818383)
Given your status you should have got free seat selection

Whoops, I’m not on here very often and my BA (and BD - remember that gravy train!) Gold expired years ago. No status now, so I’ll update profile when I’m not typing on my phone, so it doesn’t confuse.

Kgmm77 Dec 8, 19 9:51 am


Originally Posted by madfish (Post 31818294)
Where does it say anywhere that the seats that you are shown are all that are available.

When you’re answering a question about ethics and customer service by referring to the minutiae of terms and conditions, frankly you’re losing.

corporate-wage-slave Dec 8, 19 9:56 am


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818410)
So, I’ve just checked in for BA12 back to LHR tomorrow night.

I’ve been ‘randomly’ assigned a middle seat on the lower deck of economy. Once again I was given the option to select a seat for a fee.

If by tomorrow you mean departing 9 December, then BA12 is fairly well sold. There are about a dozen available seats, but after staff standbys I would expect that service to go out fairly busy. On the upper deck there are about 4 aisle seats left and a similar number of window seats. There are also about 6 Theoretical Blocks for status passengers, not all of which will survive the next 24 hours. The main deck is, as you suggested, more busy, with just 2 aisle seats and about 8 TS blocks. 38D might, might, give you an empty seat next to you.

Oil-man Dec 8, 19 10:02 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 31818383)
but to some extent they don't push it - at least compared to those airlines that send out nag notifications and emails.

BA very much do push it. Playing mind games to maximise seat selection revenue IMO.

madfish Dec 8, 19 10:07 am


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818318)
Enlighten me please, beyond what I can find out what booking class is available.

Try a dummy booking or subscribe to expert flyer. See what either of these reveal.

madfish Dec 8, 19 10:12 am


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818325)
Your right, and I didn’t, but I’m not impressed by your tone unless you are a BA revenue agent.

The purpose of my post (as well as a bit of a moan) is to make people aware, as these threads are fully searchable on the internet.

Hopefully I can save people a few quid over the years, and keep it out of BA’s grabbing hands. Knowledge is power.

So you don’t like people stating facts?

In any case, as pointed out by others, there is a very good thread about theortical seating. But I’m sure your thread will become as important as that one.

As you said, you paid with your own money (you must think that makes you unusual around here - it doesn’t). You choose the cheapest fare available so have to accept what BA give you seat wise. If you want more, then pay more. Simple as that.

Oil-man Dec 8, 19 10:16 am


Originally Posted by madfish (Post 31818489)
So you don’t like people stating facts?

In any case, as pointed out by others, there is a very good thread about theortical seating. But I’m sure your thread will become as important as that one.

As you said, you paid with your own money (you must think that makes you unusual around here - it doesn’t). You choose the cheapest fare available so have to accept what BA give you seat wise. If you want more, then pay more. Simple as that.

Nice

madfish Dec 8, 19 10:18 am


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818410)
So, I’ve just checked in for BA12 back to LHR tomorrow night.

I’ve been ‘randomly’ assigned a middle seat on the lower deck of economy. Once again I was given the option to select a seat for a fee.

Of the 299 economy available, once again I’ve been offered around 15 seats to choose from (with only one seat on the less popular lower deck!). The remaining 280+ economy seats are not for selection.

I know the flight is booking into discount economy class N (same as the outbound) for any new ticket booked today. Therefore, it should be a relatively quiet flight in economy and BA are trying to pull a fast one again.

Using a LON POS, N is not available. F, J and W are almost full.

The current seat map (on EF) shows 20 available seats, although a number of blocked seats as well.

scottishpoet Dec 8, 19 10:36 am


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818410)
So, I’ve just checked in for BA12 back to LHR tomorrow night.

I’ve been ‘randomly’ assigned a middle seat on the lower deck of economy. Once again I was given the option to select a seat for a fee.

Of the 299 economy available, once again I’ve been offered around 15 seats to choose from (with only one seat on the less popular lower deck!). The remaining 280+ economy seats are not for selection.

I know the flight is booking into discount economy class N (same as the outbound) for any new ticket booked today. Therefore, it should be a relatively quiet flight in economy and BA are trying to pull a fast one again.


The seat map you are seeing is the result of theoretical seating which kicks in at T-72

irishguy28 Dec 8, 19 10:45 am


Originally Posted by orbitmic (Post 31818377)
ps: plus the argument makes little sense: if ba wanted to tempt you they’d offer as many seats as possible for you to choose in order to tempt you. People know others will check in too so you could have a tonne of seats to choose from even in a cabin that will be sold out. Listing few for sale would just increase the risk customers won’t be offered something they want to buy.

I would disagree.

By (incorrectly?) showing only a limited selection of seats for purchase, BA are clearly wishing to convey the message "if you don't pay now, you'll have to settle with whatever has been passed over and rejected by everybody else!"

Your statement, which I have highlighted in bold, means you consider that BA are trying NOT to "tempt" the passenger, by showing only a limited selection. If BA truly didn't want to "tempt" the passenger, then they simply wouldn't offer seat assignments for sale. {Which we all know is balderdash - BA will grab whatever ancillary revenue they can from passengers, just as all other airlines do, too}

But I think that you, me and the OP would all agree that BA should show all available seats to customers indicating a wish to buy a seat assignment.

orbitmic Dec 8, 19 10:54 am


Originally Posted by irishguy28 (Post 31818608)
I would disagree.

By (incorrectly?) showing only a limited selection of seats for purchase, BA are clearly wishing to convey the message...

But again, if I may, you and the op are building this argument on a mistaken assumption: that ba ‘chooses’ not to offer all the seats the op would be allowed to get.

this is simply, plainly, wrong. As explained, the limited number of seats offered for the op to purchase are actually all those he would be allowed to buy after check in opens and all he would be allowed to choose for free if he were not on a basic ticket simply based on his status.

this is the whole point of theoretical seating amply discusses elsewhere in this forum.

The whole notion that ba are restricting seat choices below what is available to the op is plainly wrong, and therefore the notion there can be no intention behind something that simply does not exist.

and no, I do not agree at all with your last statement if it means that ba should suspend theoretical seating when customers are willing to pay. I like theoretical seating and I think it would be completely wrong to suspend it for for cash.

After all, the op would have had plenty of opportunity to buy many other seats before the flight went into airport control, and if he had, theoretical seating would have dynamically updated to still prioritise free seats next to high status and full fare customers by the time flight opened for check in. The fact that he wanted to first try his luck with the random selection before deciding to fork out for a specific seat does not mean that high value customers should be short changed as a result. As he confirmed, passengers can always request to move to free seats on board subject to crew approval (and again they may say yes to some requests and no to others, but that too is discussed elsewhere).

mikeyfly Dec 8, 19 11:12 am

When I first flew to the Far East - 20 years ago - in my teens and on my own dime, it was over £700 for the cheapest economy - that was on MH. Flights are now often £400ish non-stop, I’d certainly book and if necessary pay the small amount for a seat of my choice if I was without status and not look back. Flying has never been so reasonably priced!

irishguy28 Dec 8, 19 11:25 am


Originally Posted by orbitmic (Post 31818643)
But again, if I may, you and the op are building this argument on a mistaken assumption: that ba ‘chooses’ not to offer all the seats the op would be allowed to get.

this is simply, plainly, wrong. As explained, the limited number of seats offered for the op to purchase are actually all those he would be allowed to buy after check in opens and all he would be allowed to choose for free if he were not on a basic ticket simply based on his status.

this is the whole point of theoretical seating amply discusses elsewhere in this forum.

Theoretical seating starts at T-72, yes?

Do we know that this was prior to that magical "theoretical" window? OP, when did you first look at the seat map?

mikem004 Dec 8, 19 11:28 am

Customers shouldn't have to go to a third party site such as ExpertFlyer in order to find out what the true situation is regarding available seats.
The information should be directly available on the BA seat map. Not just a subset of seats that BA has decided to show you.

Oil-man Dec 8, 19 11:33 am


Originally Posted by orbitmic (Post 31818643)
But again, if I may, you and the op are building this argument on a mistaken assumption: that ba ‘chooses’ not to offer all the seats the op would be allowed to get.

this is simply, plainly, wrong. As explained, the limited number of seats offered for the op to purchase are actually all those he would be allowed to buy after check in opens and all he would be allowed to choose for free if he were not on a basic ticket simply based on his status.

this is the whole point of theoretical seating amply discusses elsewhere in this forum.

The whole notion that ba are restricting seat choices below what is available to the op is plainly wrong, and therefore the notion there can be no intention behind something that simply does not exist.

and no, I do not agree at all with your last statement if it means that ba should suspend theoretical seating when customers are willing to pay. I like theoretical seating and I think it would be completely wrong to suspend it for for cash.

After all, the op would have had plenty of opportunity to buy many other seats before the flight went into airport control, and if he had, theoretical seating would have dynamically updated to still prioritise free seats next to high status and full fare customers by the time flight opened for check in. The fact that he wanted to first try his luck with the random selection before deciding to fork out for a specific seat does not mean that high value customers should be short changed as a result. As he confirmed, passengers can always request to move to free seats on board subject to crew approval (and again they may say yes to some requests and no to others, but that too is discussed elsewhere).

Thanks for this explanation. On my outbound flight BA must have blocked 100++ economy seats, as they weren’t filled on the flight and they certainly weren’t open for purchase.

I’ve now subscribed to expert flyer on the trial basis, and if I understand it correctly, it shows 57 blocked seats in economy on tomorrow’s flight, including the middle seat next to me. Although the middle seat next to me is only blocked, I had incorrectly assumed it was occupied (it may well be in the end) and this may fuel my desire to pay to move seat.

These numerous blocked seats certainly give the impression that the flight is fuller than it is, and whether intentional or not, I believe it will fuel seat purchases.

I do hope BA are not using the flexibility to block seats to drive revenue.

orbitmic Dec 8, 19 11:37 am


Originally Posted by irishguy28 (Post 31818710)
Theoretical seating starts at T-72, yes?

Do we know that this was prior to that magical "theoretical" window? OP, when did you first look at the seat map?

Unless I misunderstand post 1, Op explained that he checked in then as he wasn’t happy to have received a window he wanted to pay to change his seat. Same on the way back (but from a middle), so my understanding is both times he tried to change after check in ie after theoretical seating kicked in.

orbitmic Dec 8, 19 11:49 am


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818723)
Thanks for this explanation. One my outbound flight BA must have blocked 100++ economy seats, as they weren’t filled on the flight and they certainly weren’t open for purchase.

I’ve now subscribed to expert flyer on the trial basis, and if I understand it correctly, it shows 57 blocked seats in economy on tomorrow’s flight, including the middle seat next to me. Although the middle seat next to me is only blocked, I had incorrectly assumed it was occupied (it may well be in the end) and this may fuel my desire to pay to move seat.

These numerous blocked seats certainly give the impression that the flight is fuller than it is, and whether intentional or not, I believe it will fuel seat purchases.

I do hope BA are not using the flexibility to block seats to drive revenue.

Again I’d recommend a look at the theoretical seating thread because it’s more complex than blocking seats. What theoretical seating does is that it ‘slices’ the plane into different series of seats which will each be shown/available to a specific type of customer status. So some seats which are NOT blocked will be available to, say, silver customers at check in but not to you, others will be available to hold customers but not to silver etc. So in the end, you were not shown all unblocked seats but all unblocked seats available to non status customers. The more you go up in status, the more your group is over catered whilst yours as no status, will be given barely more seats than there are people in the group so that most of the free space is enjoyed by ba’s most valuable customers. Other airlines like af do exactly the same

scottishpoet Dec 8, 19 11:51 am

If you want a fuller selection of seats to pay for then do so before theoretical seating kicks in. Dont wait till check in.

corporate-wage-slave Dec 8, 19 11:52 am


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818723)
These numerous blocked seats certainly give the impression that the flight is fuller than it is, and whether intentional or not, I believe it will fuel seat purchases.

I do hope BA are not using the flexibility to block seats to drive revenue.

You have to do a bit of interpretation here. So 71A I suspect is a Silver card holder, 71B is their Theoretical Seating block for status. 70D to G could be blocked for a family group of 4 who haven't checked in yet, or it could be for 2 couples. And it is dynamic, it will look a bit different in a few hours. And different again when all the upgrades are processed. TS does a number of things, including trying to prevent family groups from being split up, so I suspect 40F and G are examples of this.

By the time you've put TS blocks for status, taken into account the 50% of passengers who have probably checked in already, those with status, those with corporate tickets (which often come with free seating), those booking via travel agents with seating deals, couples, assistance passengers, and everything else - you can see how eventually the seating map you are looking at is what it is.

I should also point out that I very much doubt that many other passengers on this flight will be parsing row by row through the options, far more will simply ask the check-in agent whether they can have a window seat.

scottishpoet Dec 8, 19 11:56 am


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818723)
Thanks for this explanation. On my outbound flight BA must have blocked 100++ economy seats, as they weren’t filled on the flight and they certainly weren’t open for purchase.

I’ve now subscribed to expert flyer on the trial basis, and if I understand it correctly, it shows 57 blocked seats in economy on tomorrow’s flight, including the middle seat next to me. Although the middle seat next to me is only blocked, I had incorrectly assumed it was occupied (it may well be in the end) and this may fuel my desire to pay to move seat.

These numerous blocked seats certainly give the impression that the flight is fuller than it is, and whether intentional or not, I believe it will fuel seat purchases.

I do hope BA are not using the flexibility to block seats to drive revenue.

You get 5 free searches a day on expert flyer for seat maps without any subscription.you do not need a trial subscription.

Lots of seat blocks is exactly what you will see after T-72 no matter how heavy the load is.

This is true for most airlines the many airlines that use ALTEA software.

You really cannot wait till check in to see what seat you get and then decide if you want to buy a seat

The available seats you are shown will vary over time as more people check in, this happens for everyone but may vary less as you move up the status levels.

Personally I prefer to think of it as dynamic seating as I feel that better describes what is happening.

South London Bon Viveur Dec 8, 19 3:23 pm

Theoretical seating is a god send on my various short intra European hops- long may it continue, although I do also understand the OP's point.

orbitmic Dec 8, 19 3:37 pm


Originally Posted by South London Bon Viveur (Post 31819336)
Theoretical seating is a god send on my various short intra European hops- long may it continue, although I do also understand the OP's point.

Indeed, what Theoretical Seating does is that it rectifies an oddity. Typically, in the pre-TS world, the so called "high value customers" (HVC - ie high status or full fare) would typically assign seats at the front of their cabin (nice because they are first out, better placed for food choice, etc) leaving less privileged customer to first fill in windows and aisles further back. Later on, however, if the plane was - say - 3/4 full (close to the average in the industry in fact) and some middle seats had to be taken, people would choose them in the front rows too (in between two HVC) whilst the back would retain its empty middle seats. So if you were HVC, you were less likely to have a free middle seat unless you decided to use your seat selection paradoxically, ie assign a less desirable seat near the back in the hope nobody else would bother (and that was even before BA introduced different seats in different parts of the cabin, though in fact many airlines had higher seat pitch in the first 10 or 12 rows). I remember those days very well, for instance when KL first introduced free seat assignments for FB Platinums and basically, we'd all be congregated in the packed first few rows whilst there would be entirely free rows nearer the back.

Instead, theoretical seating goes back to the airline's intention which is - rightly or wrongly - to give greater seat advantages to its HVC ie better rows AND greater likelihood of free middle seats or even entire row. It does that by slicing the cabin in segments (giving far more seats than needed if at all possible to its HVC whilst giving regular folks fairly full rows) and even blocking specific seats (typically middles, sometimes aisles to ensure that even by "mistake", those HVC won't come to squeeze each other just because they all want the first row.

The whole point - and again, I am not saying that this is right or wrong - is that we are not all playing on a level play field and that is what the airline is choosing to do. Now with improvement to loads, very often, this is no longer a real benefit bar for a few passengers (TS can be quite subtle actually) but even on empty ones, that is the choice BA and others do - they decide which passengers will likely get a full row to themselves by not offering certain sections of the plane to passengers who might like them. It is frustrating for them, but obviously a major benefit for HVCs.

navylad Dec 8, 19 3:43 pm

So I’d suggest that TS is entirely used for positive reasons- enduring status pax get the best experience, pax with accessibility issues/families are catered as far as possible to sit together, yet with seen the app, whom we can of course sympathise had we not had the knowledge, make an assumption that BA are doing things for the wrong reasons

Hopefully the OP will have a nice flight home

Kgmm77 Dec 8, 19 4:05 pm


Originally Posted by orbitmic (Post 31819363)
Indeed, what Theoretical Seating does is that it rectifies an oddity. Typically, in the pre-TS world, the so called "high value customers" (HVC - ie high status or full fare) would typically assign seats at the front of their cabin (nice because they are first out, better placed for food choice, etc) leaving less privileged customer to first fill in windows and aisles further back. Later on, however, if the plane was - say - 3/4 full (close to the average in the industry in fact) and some middle seats had to be taken, people would choose them in the front rows too (in between two HVC) whilst the back would retain its empty middle seats. So if you were HVC, you were less likely to have a free middle seat unless you decided to use your seat selection paradoxically, ie assign a less desirable seat near the back in the hope nobody else would bother (and that was even before BA introduced different seats in different parts of the cabin, though in fact many airlines had higher seat pitch in the first 10 or 12 rows). I remember those days very well, for instance when KL first introduced free seat assignments for FB Platinums and basically, we'd all be congregated in the packed first few rows whilst there would be entirely free rows nearer the back.

Instead, theoretical seating goes back to the airline's intention which is - rightly or wrongly - to give greater seat advantages to its HVC ie better rows AND greater likelihood of free middle seats or even entire row. It does that by slicing the cabin in segments (giving far more seats than needed if at all possible to its HVC whilst giving regular folks fairly full rows) and even blocking specific seats (typically middles, sometimes aisles to ensure that even by "mistake", those HVC won't come to squeeze each other just because they all want the first row.

The whole point - and again, I am not saying that this is right or wrong - is that we are not all playing on a level play field and that is what the airline is choosing to do. Now with improvement to loads, very often, this is no longer a real benefit bar for a few passengers (TS can be quite subtle actually) but even on empty ones, that is the choice BA and others do - they decide which passengers will likely get a full row to themselves by not offering certain sections of the plane to passengers who might like them. It is frustrating for them, but obviously a major benefit for HVCs.


Originally Posted by navylad (Post 31819377)
So I’d suggest that TS is entirely used for positive reasons- enduring status pax get the best experience, pax with accessibility issues/families are catered as far as possible to sit together, yet with seen the app, whom we can of course sympathise had we not had the knowledge, make an assumption that BA are doing things for the wrong reasons

Hopefully the OP will have a nice flight home

I’m fairly sure Theoretical Seating wouldn’t have got past the business case stage without having a positive cash flow assessment.

BA recent financial performance vs peers is entirely rooted in disaggregating and (by and large successfully) monetising each incremental step of the passenger journey.

Forgive me for not buying any argument which has altruism or even long-term reward at its core.

navylad Dec 8, 19 4:45 pm


Originally Posted by Kgmm77 (Post 31819441)
I’m fairly sure Theoretical Seating wouldn’t have got past the business case stage without having a positive cash flow assessment.

BA recent financial performance vs peers is entirely rooted in disaggregating and (by and large successfully) monetising each incremental step of the passenger journey.

Forgive me for not buying any argument which has altruism or even long-term reward at its core.

Your forgiven. Personally, I think it increases revenue by reward loyalty. As others have already pointed out, if BA wanted to make as much money as possible then it would show the widest range of available seats and just charge more for what is blocked by TS.

I’m not saying they don’t make money out of it- but I don’t buy into the ‘woo is me’ they’re making money deceptively; they offer a range of fares, some of which come with seating including some of which don’t, those that don’t allow for selection based on status and type of ticket sold to change seats for a fee.

HIDDY Dec 8, 19 5:09 pm


Originally Posted by navylad (Post 31819510)
Your forgiven. Personally, I think it increases revenue by reward loyalty. As others have already pointed out, if BA wanted to make as much money as possible then it would should the widest range of available seats and just charge more for what is blocked by TS.

I’m not saying they don’t make money out of it- but I don’t buy into the ‘woo is me’ they’re making money deceptively; they offer a range of fares, some of which come with seating including some of which don’t, those that don’t allow for selection based on status and type of ticket sold to change seats for a fee.

I think that's a sensible view. Interesting to see many of the negative views come from those who actually benefit the most....those who have status. For people like me who have no status it's been refreshing to see. I never thought they cared. ^
Anyway, I remember the pre internet days when like most people I didn't select a seat in economy until I turned up at check-in.

wilsnunn Dec 9, 19 2:37 am


Originally Posted by madfish (Post 31818474)
Try a dummy booking or subscribe to expert flyer. See what either of these reveal.


Originally Posted by Oil-man (Post 31818723)
Thanks for this explanation. On my outbound flight BA must have blocked 100++ economy seats, as they weren’t filled on the flight and they certainly weren’t open for purchase.

I’ve now subscribed to expert flyer on the trial basis, and if I understand it correctly, it shows 57 blocked seats in economy on tomorrow’s flight, including the middle seat next to me. Although the middle seat next to me is only blocked, I had incorrectly assumed it was occupied (it may well be in the end) and this may fuel my desire to pay to move seat.

These numerous blocked seats certainly give the impression that the flight is fuller than it is, and whether intentional or not, I believe it will fuel seat purchases.

I do hope BA are not using the flexibility to block seats to drive revenue.

You can view seatmaps on ExpertFlyer without having to pay, so if all you want to do is see seat maps then you do not need to worry about usding the trial etc.

Simply create a free account, press "Create Seat Alert", enter your flight details, pick a cabin (note that for free you can only see one cabin at a time), press search and voila your seatmap will be showing.

corporate-wage-slave Dec 9, 19 2:54 am

4 Attachment(s)
So an update for Singapore afternoon on the day of departure.

The SIN point of sale gives
F0 A0 J0 C0 D0 R0 I0 W0 E0 T0 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 L9 V9 S9 N9 Q9 O0 G9
which suggests WT is not oversold but the rest of the aircraft is full. However that is not to say WT is empty, indeed most of the status led TS blocks in the upper deck have gone, 71K and 80K being among the few of the lucky ones. There are still other TS blocks showing however.

If I remember I'll do an update just before departure.

Information courtesy of ExpertFlyer.

corporate-wage-slave Dec 9, 19 8:14 am

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Well they are nearly finished boarding at gate C25, it's down as Gate Closing on the monitors, and here is the near-final boarding. If they didn't clear all the staff standbys earlier there may be one or two changes, but usually not at this point.

The A380 is completely full in First, Club World and World Traveller Plus. There are 9 empty seats in World Traveller out of 303, 4 on the lower deck. Consequently BA filled 460 seats out of a maximum 469 passengers, so I think RevMgmt will chalk that up as a win.

orbitmic Dec 9, 19 8:39 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 31821286)
Well they are nearly finished boarding at gate C25, it's down as Gate Closing on the monitors, and here is the near-final boarding. If they didn't clear all the staff standbys earlier there may be one or two changes, but usually not at this point.

The A380 is completely full in First, Club World and World Traveller Plus. There are 9 empty seats in World Traveller out of 303, 4 on the lower deck. Consequently BA filled 460 seats out of a maximum 469 passengers, so I think RevMgmt will chalk that up as a win.

And if the op chose to keep his free middle in hope of getting something better onboard, it’s unlikely that he will have succeeded... hopefully for him, he managed to convince a sympathetic agent to move him...


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