Understanding risks of ExEU
Aug 24, 2019, 5:38 pm
#31
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Henley-On-Thames
Programs: BAEC Silver (but only temporarily) AVIS Presidents Club, Starbucks Gold
Posts: 486
Thanks all for quick and helpful replies.
Flying "direct" MAN-LHR-IAH (or just LON-IAH) isn't an option due to the prices, hence the ex-eu path.
In terms of other cities, INV doesn't have any better prices than direct. DUB is better than direct, but not as good as the cities I listed. DUB only becomes an option if I can get the supporting costs much cheaper (to/from DUB, hotel, etc.).
I'm constrained that I can't leave MAN before approx 1800 the night before, so that limits doing B2B the night before, and limits the places I can get to for the morning start.
Although I've not done B2B there, I'm familiar with both AMS and ARN on BA and other airlines, so the airports themselves don't worry me.
MUC might be an sensible priced option too. PRG and OTP are showing F for cheaper than J (and cheaper than J from AMS) but PRG/OTP have no sensible Plan B options if the B2B fails.
If I don't get to IAH by the end of the day, then the trip would be pointless as I'd miss the meeting in the morning. I vaguely recall there is a "trip in vain" policy where if BA's IRROPS make you miss the purpose of a trip you can claim a refund of the whole trip?
Flying "direct" MAN-LHR-IAH (or just LON-IAH) isn't an option due to the prices, hence the ex-eu path.
In terms of other cities, INV doesn't have any better prices than direct. DUB is better than direct, but not as good as the cities I listed. DUB only becomes an option if I can get the supporting costs much cheaper (to/from DUB, hotel, etc.).
I'm constrained that I can't leave MAN before approx 1800 the night before, so that limits doing B2B the night before, and limits the places I can get to for the morning start.
Although I've not done B2B there, I'm familiar with both AMS and ARN on BA and other airlines, so the airports themselves don't worry me.
MUC might be an sensible priced option too. PRG and OTP are showing F for cheaper than J (and cheaper than J from AMS) but PRG/OTP have no sensible Plan B options if the B2B fails.
If I don't get to IAH by the end of the day, then the trip would be pointless as I'd miss the meeting in the morning. I vaguely recall there is a "trip in vain" policy where if BA's IRROPS make you miss the purpose of a trip you can claim a refund of the whole trip?
ML
Aug 24, 2019, 10:24 pm
#32
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SYD, GOT
Programs: BA GGL; SK EBG; QF LTG; Hilton Diamond, A-Club Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 2,723
Very similar situation to rosenkavalier, except I got stuck, it was way late, and I was put up for the night and put on first flight in the morning and staff did not see the issue.. Of course luggage was at home and I was HBO. No way I could get home, neighbour with a spare key was fast asleep nursing a wicked hang over. For a reason that I do not get, Amex travel insurance covered it as a “lost baggage” situation. Thumbs up! And remember to ask you never know, as they said it was so odd they did not have an exception for it.
Aug 24, 2019, 10:33 pm
#33
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SYD, GOT
Programs: BA GGL; SK EBG; QF LTG; Hilton Diamond, A-Club Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 2,723
One question I have for the B2B people, is why do not not put all flights on the same PNR? While it is still two tickets you have one wrapper which gives some protection, and at least BA knows where you are and what you want to do.
(As long as you take all flights and in the right order)
(As long as you take all flights and in the right order)
Aug 24, 2019, 11:12 pm
#34
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: YYC
Programs: BA bronze, Aeroplan peon
Posts: 4,746
Another thought, since you mentioned AMS, is what does KLM change for the trip? I would expect it to be cheaper, since you'll have to connect in AMS from London. Also look at Air Canada, they have been having some very good deals to USA destinations.
Aug 25, 2019, 3:08 am
#36
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: London/Glasgow
Programs: BAEC Silver (lapsed HNL Gold), Avis Preferred, IHG Diamond Amb, Hilton Plat, Marriot Plat
Posts: 351
Taking the last flight is fine if you're not being too clever, and you are taking the first flight the next morning. Certainly for almost all destinations, so long as there aren't 2 or more nightstopper aircraft (GLA/EDI being a couple of exceptions) the aircraft that takes you there will bring you back again.
This is my preference with checked luggage as one can go from work, take an evening flight, and take the first flight the next morning giving you scope to check bags. My assumption is that 2 things can happen:
1. The last flight can't go, so there's no aircraft for the next morning, so on arrival at LHR for the outbound there's plenty of desks available to rebook directly from London
2. The last flight leaves very late, meaning only 3-4h of sleep in the airport hotel at the ex-EU point, which doesn't bother me as the point of ex-EU is to get a flatbed for long haul so one can always sleep on the plane, especially if going East as that could even aid with jet lag.
I recently booked a trip to Asia leaving from MXP. Outbound leaves LHR at 8.30pm, arriving 11.35pm. There's a tired but functional Sheraton at T1 MXP. The return leaves MXP at 8am or so, an hour later than most other European ports, so realistically there's 5h of sleep, luggage checked through to Asia, and under half the fare cost based on an ex-LON departure. The biggest risk I can see is the evening MXP doesn't go, and BA are 'helpful' and transfer me to ex-LIN for the next morning, but I would be comfortable discussing this at LHR on the basis 'of course people go to Milan on a Thursday night for a night out'.
This is my preference with checked luggage as one can go from work, take an evening flight, and take the first flight the next morning giving you scope to check bags. My assumption is that 2 things can happen:
1. The last flight can't go, so there's no aircraft for the next morning, so on arrival at LHR for the outbound there's plenty of desks available to rebook directly from London
2. The last flight leaves very late, meaning only 3-4h of sleep in the airport hotel at the ex-EU point, which doesn't bother me as the point of ex-EU is to get a flatbed for long haul so one can always sleep on the plane, especially if going East as that could even aid with jet lag.
I recently booked a trip to Asia leaving from MXP. Outbound leaves LHR at 8.30pm, arriving 11.35pm. There's a tired but functional Sheraton at T1 MXP. The return leaves MXP at 8am or so, an hour later than most other European ports, so realistically there's 5h of sleep, luggage checked through to Asia, and under half the fare cost based on an ex-LON departure. The biggest risk I can see is the evening MXP doesn't go, and BA are 'helpful' and transfer me to ex-LIN for the next morning, but I would be comfortable discussing this at LHR on the basis 'of course people go to Milan on a Thursday night for a night out'.
Aug 25, 2019, 3:17 am
#37
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,659
Getting BA to rebook on non-Oneworld airlines is very hard. In my experience - and I have a good share of stories about irregular ops - BA won't do anything until you get to a point where you misconnect. They are not very good at being proactive preferring to wait until you get to LHR/LGW to deal with the problem.
AMS, to be fair, is an easy B2B and simpler for sure than ARN where you need to immigrate before connecting (I have never trusted the special connections door).
AMS, to be fair, is an easy B2B and simpler for sure than ARN where you need to immigrate before connecting (I have never trusted the special connections door).
Aug 25, 2019, 3:39 am
#38
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London
Programs: BA GGL (for now) and Lifetime Gold, Marriott fan thanks to Bonvoy Moments
Posts: 5,115
If I’ve booked the last LCY-AMS of the day on one ticket as positioning flights and the first AMS-LCY the next morning for the ex-EU (same aircraft) a cancellation on the first should mean a cancellation of the second. But BA might proactively rebook the ex-EU leg to a similarly timed LHR flight - they’d think they’re being helpful, getting me to LON for my long haul flight etc. but that wouldn’t give me any chance to get to AMS in time as the first flights are served by planes overnighting
Aug 25, 2019, 4:53 am
#39
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Programs: BA Gold, Bonvoy Platinum, HH Diamond; others
Posts: 741
Taking the last flight is fine if you're not being too clever, and you are taking the first flight the next morning. Certainly for almost all destinations, so long as there aren't 2 or more nightstopper aircraft (GLA/EDI being a couple of exceptions) the aircraft that takes you there will bring you back again.
This is my preference with checked luggage as one can go from work, take an evening flight, and take the first flight the next morning giving you scope to check bags. My assumption is that 2 things can happen:
1. The last flight can't go, so there's no aircraft for the next morning, so on arrival at LHR for the outbound there's plenty of desks available to rebook directly from London
2. The last flight leaves very late, meaning only 3-4h of sleep in the airport hotel at the ex-EU point, which doesn't bother me as the point of ex-EU is to get a flatbed for long haul so one can always sleep on the plane, especially if going East as that could even aid with jet lag.
I recently booked a trip to Asia leaving from MXP. Outbound leaves LHR at 8.30pm, arriving 11.35pm. There's a tired but functional Sheraton at T1 MXP. The return leaves MXP at 8am or so, an hour later than most other European ports, so realistically there's 5h of sleep, luggage checked through to Asia, and under half the fare cost based on an ex-LON departure. The biggest risk I can see is the evening MXP doesn't go, and BA are 'helpful' and transfer me to ex-LIN for the next morning, but I would be comfortable discussing this at LHR on the basis 'of course people go to Milan on a Thursday night for a night out'.
This is my preference with checked luggage as one can go from work, take an evening flight, and take the first flight the next morning giving you scope to check bags. My assumption is that 2 things can happen:
1. The last flight can't go, so there's no aircraft for the next morning, so on arrival at LHR for the outbound there's plenty of desks available to rebook directly from London
2. The last flight leaves very late, meaning only 3-4h of sleep in the airport hotel at the ex-EU point, which doesn't bother me as the point of ex-EU is to get a flatbed for long haul so one can always sleep on the plane, especially if going East as that could even aid with jet lag.
I recently booked a trip to Asia leaving from MXP. Outbound leaves LHR at 8.30pm, arriving 11.35pm. There's a tired but functional Sheraton at T1 MXP. The return leaves MXP at 8am or so, an hour later than most other European ports, so realistically there's 5h of sleep, luggage checked through to Asia, and under half the fare cost based on an ex-LON departure. The biggest risk I can see is the evening MXP doesn't go, and BA are 'helpful' and transfer me to ex-LIN for the next morning, but I would be comfortable discussing this at LHR on the basis 'of course people go to Milan on a Thursday night for a night out'.
Aug 25, 2019, 4:54 am
#40
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Programs: BA Gold, Bonvoy Platinum, HH Diamond; others
Posts: 741
Aug 25, 2019, 5:13 am
#41
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold / OW Emerald
Posts: 753
My personal way to do this is to:
1) Have travel insurance that will covered missed departures. My insurer will only cover a replacement economy class ticket but that's good enough for me
2) Position as a day trip, say, morning flight to AMS, return in the evening, spend a day out and about.
3) Overnight home in London
4) Take my main flight the next day.
5) Either route with a LHR-LGW connection on the return or allow a few hours to catch a flight. Worst case I'd have to book an hotel and a short haul flight which is fine.
1) Have travel insurance that will covered missed departures. My insurer will only cover a replacement economy class ticket but that's good enough for me
2) Position as a day trip, say, morning flight to AMS, return in the evening, spend a day out and about.
3) Overnight home in London
4) Take my main flight the next day.
5) Either route with a LHR-LGW connection on the return or allow a few hours to catch a flight. Worst case I'd have to book an hotel and a short haul flight which is fine.
Aug 25, 2019, 5:31 am
#42
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada, USA, Europe
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 31,452
Although I have been doing ex EU itineraries for many years I am very much coming to the same conclusion now not least because, when I add it all up in terms of cost and time spent as a proportion if the overall trip, the perceived savings often aren’t actually as great as they can first appear.
When you factor in the cost of at least one hotel room, the positioning flight(s), meals, at least one 24-hour period completely wasted, (all assuming you don't drop the last flight), I really wonder how much the net saving is. Personally I wouldn't bother.
Aug 25, 2019, 5:40 am
#43
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London
Programs: BA GGL (for now) and Lifetime Gold, Marriott fan thanks to Bonvoy Moments
Posts: 5,115
Aug 25, 2019, 5:42 am
#44
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cambridge, UK
Programs: Mucci, BA GGL/CCR
Posts: 761
I agree if the saving were <£500 it might not be worth the effort.
Aug 25, 2019, 5:48 am
#45
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,286
I use AMS regularly as a starting point, being based in London. I generally try to do my b2b so that I have slightly less than 24h back in london between the AMS-LON and LON-XYZ. I know this isn’t relevant to the OP being based in MAN but if you are in london then this is pretty foolproof. I’ve encountered issues from fog, cancelled flights, delays, etc and it’s always easy to sort because you have 24h to play with.