USA_flyer

There's a difference between revenue and profit. I can well believe it makes more than $1bn in revenue, what that ends up being once wages, fuel, aircraft, landing fees and whatever other costs it has are paid, as profit, is entirely a different matter. I would imagine only BA and AA know what that is.

Jagboi

BA's patents expired a long time ago. The patents were quite weak, it would have been very easy for another company to design around them.

Of course other airlines could have offered that seat, they just would have to licence it from BA. Instead, they went other directions,such as configurations that offer aisle access for all passengers.

Andriyko

What is the indicator then? Your opinion? My opinion? Someone else's opinion? How can a product be least competitive and yet attract the largest number of takers? You are trying to explain things based on the established point of view that BA is crap, so you're trying to justify why anyone would fly BA based on why you think you'd fly BA...if you were forced to of course. But what if other people think otherwise? What if they don't care about a door at the seat? What if they're happy to sleep on a bed, a different bed than you, personally, find awesome and top notch, for the price that BA offers? You, yourself, cannot give a plausible explanation as to why other airlines are shrinking their business class cabins... If they are so much more competitive, why are they? What if people are not interested in their 'more competitive' seat? Is that a thought you're ready to entertain?

Jimmie76

You're spot on there Mint has foot boxes/wells/coffins.

Jimmie76

When the Suite is launched Mint and B6 (assuming B6 come to London) will for me have an advantage over BA. Both airlines will have the detested (by me) footwells etc. However my flights are LHR to BOS and then onwards via B6 or 9K (Cape Air) to ACK (Nantucket). Now B6 and 9K are codeshare partners so I could book a through ticket from London to ACK. That would mean should I be unable to get off the island on B6/9K I wouldn't have to buy a new TATL ticket. So I'm stuck with a foot coffin on both BA and B6 but only one can through ticket me to ACK and back.

cmd320

Clearly I struck a nerve...

The indicator is the direction in which the industry as a whole is moving. There may very well be some people out there that think a 2-4-2 J product is competitive enough for them, I have no doubt about that and they are welcome to hold that opinion. The majority however, do not. If they did you would see every other airline out there ditching their 1-2-1 J cabins for a 2-4-2 cabin layout which would allow them to put more seats in a smaller space. Even BA is beginning to trend away from this with its new CW product on the A350. What is the point of BA developing and installing this new J product if CW was adequate for today's market?

I cannot give a plausible explanation to AA or DL shrinking their J cabins because that really isn't an accurate claim...

The old AA 777-200 had 37 angle-flat J seats. The new AA 777-200 has 37 full flat J seats with direct aisle access. Yes, these aircraft did have a 12 seat F cabin which typically went out with many non-revs and elites using SWUs. Needless to say AA wanted to move away from its uncompeitive F product and is installing premium economy.
The old AA 767-300 had 35 angle-flat J seats. The new AA 767-300 has 28 full flat J seats with direct aisle access. A reduction of 7 yes, however when you look at how the missions of these aircraft has shifted to more domestic and non-premium markets, this reduction is justified.
The AA 777-300ER has always had 8F and 52J.

As for Delta, I believe they primarily fly their 767-400 and A330 aircraft to London from JFK...

The old DL A330-300 had 34 cradle-style J seats which were actually former Northwest World Business seats. These were replaced with 34 reverse-herringbone full flat J seats.
The old DL A330-200 had 32 cradle-style J seats, also former Northwest World Business seats. These were also replaced with 34 reverse-herringbone full flat J seats.
The old old DL 767-400ER had 36 standard domestic style F seats. These aircraft were reconfigured for intercontinental flying and had these recliners replaced with 40 full flat J seats with direct aisle access. These are now being replaced with 34 D1 J suites. This is a reduction of 6, however keep in mind this refurb is also adding a 20 seat premium select cabin.

I'm not really sure where this claim of AA/DL shrinking their J cabins comes from, but there really isn't much of a change happening outside of a few adjustments to accommodate a premium economy cabin/footprint of the different seats.

So I guess if people are not interested in a more competitive seat, what would be the point of installing them at all for any airline including BA?

Telecasterman

we disagree

LTN Phobia

We could do with calming down a bit here.

Remember, it's only about an airline route, not something really serious like world politics... (which, we cordially request that is taken to OMNI for discussion, and not to be discussed here )

Please feel free to take a look at something like LOLCats for a bit of light entertainment and calming effects!

LTN Phobia
Moderator: BA forum

opus99

I would say its a fortress hub given that they have 55% of slots and the next best competitor is virgin with 7%. I guess in the context of the european market. US airlines have LARGE fleets (700+) aircrafts so they can have hubs that literally have only their own aircrafts

Andriyko

No, you have not struck a nerve. I, personally, do not think that the type of the seat matters that much to be honest now that most airlines offer flat beds. The 1-2-1 configuration is basically a disguised 2-4-2 configuration as the seat goes under another seat in front. But if you look closely at how the seats are stacked up it is pretty much the same. It creates an allusion that it is a 1-2-1 set-up but in fact airlines cramp roughly the same number of seats into the same space. No one is going to give us too much of the precious real estate. I think the only real benefit that the 1-2-1 configuration achieves (and it's probably why BA went for it) is direct aisle access that the current CW set-up does not quite achieve (although it is nowhere near as horrible as some of the seats where you actually have to climb over another passenger). I am sure there will be many takers for B6 flights, especially if they are priced cheaply.

NYLON Boy

dougzz

How is 2-4-2 vs 1-2-1 a fact? Both overlapping rows, no?

Prospero

There is a chapter missing from the history of AA's 777 fleet.

When AA introduced its Concept D and Super Diamond seats to its 777-200 fleet, the business cabins were reconfigured from 37J NGBC to 45J. Later, when Premium Economy was fitted, the business cabins were reconfigured 37J (with the removal of the demi cabin aft of door 2)

This coincided with BA up-gauging its 747 fleet from 70J to 86J on select JBV routes.

Andriyko

What facts are you referring to? That despite where the industry is going BA is still flying the largest business class cabins or that other airlines are downsizing theirs because there are not many takers? Yes, airlines are adopting the 1-2-1 configuration, but seats are meant to have passengers in them rather than being admired on this forum and then fly empty. I am not putting forward any personal opinions regarding the seats. I am pointing out what passengers and the airlines are doing. I did not see any facts in that post. I can't put together the 'fact' that the 1-2-1 configuration of AA or DL are preferred by the majority of passengers and these two airlines saying that they will decrease the number of business class seats because they can't fill them. I thought the opposite would be happening. And the 1-2-1 configuration is a disguised 2-4-2 configuration... But, yes, let's not let the facts and the behavioral evidence get in the way.

cmd320

Correct. I didn't include this because this configuration only lasted a couple of years and it was only installed on a bit less than half of the 772 fleet. These aircraft had the AA Concept D seat which was a variation of the reverse-herringbone design on the 77W and included rear-facing seats in every other row. These aircraft still have the Concept D seat in the same 37J footprint as the rest of the AA 772 fleet which have the SuperDiamond seat installed. There's still a mini-cabin aft of the 2L/R doors.