Club Europe - unusual text message : Removal of middle seat block
#121
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wembley, Middx, England
Programs: BA Gold, Marriott Platinum, Hilton Gold
Posts: 775
Back in the day, I had the same thing happen on a British Midland flight from LHR to Glasgow in Business. Mr W and I, had a seatmate in the middle who was 8-years-old! Nice little chap...
#122
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
Happened before and likely will happen again.
I operated ex-HEL Christmas even 2008... We had already been cancelled twice due to weather, we were the only BA aircraft that made it in on the 22nd, the return was cancelled, so we had pax from the 22nd, 23rd and booked 24th to try and accommodate. Some went on AY and we took everyone we could. CE was removed and the aircraft made all Y, we used the 2 jump seats at the back for commercial, we had two staff in the flight deck, there was not a single sitting surface available for anyone... And not a word was uttered. Everyone knew why and no one asked for anything bar their usual cup of tea or coffee, and being a HEL flight, about 20 alcoholic drinks.
I operated ex-HEL Christmas even 2008... We had already been cancelled twice due to weather, we were the only BA aircraft that made it in on the 22nd, the return was cancelled, so we had pax from the 22nd, 23rd and booked 24th to try and accommodate. Some went on AY and we took everyone we could. CE was removed and the aircraft made all Y, we used the 2 jump seats at the back for commercial, we had two staff in the flight deck, there was not a single sitting surface available for anyone... And not a word was uttered. Everyone knew why and no one asked for anything bar their usual cup of tea or coffee, and being a HEL flight, about 20 alcoholic drinks.
(For those interested, the person seated in the middle was a displaced CE passenger.)
#123
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,548
Would not expect an airport to be able to handle all conditions without issue - The US is not that amazing at dealing with storms in summer - lots of delays occur
#124
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,572
I live in Switzerland. A country with lots of snow and regular hot summers.
The airports here shut during extreme snow events just like the UK. Sure, "extreme snow" here is way more than what the UK calls extreme, but the frequency (once every few years) is the same. Recently, with St Pancras in a mess due to expanding bendy railway tracks, a friend says "see? UK has gone to the dogs! I bet that never happens in Switzerland where you are". Except ... Zurich station had problems last week due to, yep, expanding bendy railway tracks. There's always a trade-off between the amount of money it costs to fix or prepare for rare events, and the cost and impact of the disruption caused by them. Most countries (the functional ones with normal economies at any rate - yes, that's highly subjective) seem to make a similar cost/benefit analysis and hence are all pretty similar.
The airports here shut during extreme snow events just like the UK. Sure, "extreme snow" here is way more than what the UK calls extreme, but the frequency (once every few years) is the same. Recently, with St Pancras in a mess due to expanding bendy railway tracks, a friend says "see? UK has gone to the dogs! I bet that never happens in Switzerland where you are". Except ... Zurich station had problems last week due to, yep, expanding bendy railway tracks. There's always a trade-off between the amount of money it costs to fix or prepare for rare events, and the cost and impact of the disruption caused by them. Most countries (the functional ones with normal economies at any rate - yes, that's highly subjective) seem to make a similar cost/benefit analysis and hence are all pretty similar.
#125
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,368
Do those upgrades require availability of upgrade inventory or just an empty seat in CE (effectively that BA be willing to sell a CE ticket on the plane, given the moveable curtain)? And are they good (for the same number of Avios) from deep discount coach fares, including HBO? And are these upgrades confirmed in advance (as would happen if one simply purchased a CE ticket) or only on the day of departure?
ADDED: BA saves money by packing the same number of passengers onto fewer operating flights and not paying compensation or refunds. Even if the same number of staff must be paid (are extra FAs required when the middle seat is filled? I thought that was the purpose of the tables, to make the middle seat uninhabitable so that the required FA count doesn't include the middle seats in CE.), BA save on fuel costs when then can operate fewer flights (and fewer takeoffs and landings) even with the same total weight being carried.
As for staff, when one accepts an outdoor job at LHR our any other airport (or more generally with any employer), part of the deal is working in any weather when it's safe to do so even if it's uncomfortable at times. Ramp workers would get more breaks and be expected to be somewhat less productive in bad weather, but the bottom line is that they need to do their jobs (or find other employment).
ADDED: BA saves money by packing the same number of passengers onto fewer operating flights and not paying compensation or refunds. Even if the same number of staff must be paid (are extra FAs required when the middle seat is filled? I thought that was the purpose of the tables, to make the middle seat uninhabitable so that the required FA count doesn't include the middle seats in CE.), BA save on fuel costs when then can operate fewer flights (and fewer takeoffs and landings) even with the same total weight being carried.
As for staff, when one accepts an outdoor job at LHR our any other airport (or more generally with any employer), part of the deal is working in any weather when it's safe to do so even if it's uncomfortable at times. Ramp workers would get more breaks and be expected to be somewhat less productive in bad weather, but the bottom line is that they need to do their jobs (or find other employment).
Last edited by MSPeconomist; Jul 28, 2019 at 7:45 am
#126
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,716
Do those upgrades require availability of upgrade inventory or just an empty seat in CE (effectively that BA be willing to sell a CE ticket on the plane, given the moveable curtain)? And are they good (for the same number of Avios) from deep discount coach fares, including HBO?
They do require redemption inventory but within Europe, and avoiding peak holidays / commuter flights, CE redemptions are pretty widely available, even on the day of travel. It's not quite the US system of any available seat, there are some revenue management nuances all over this, not least because sometimes CE redemptions are available on overbooked flights, so some BA crew who live out of London use Avios to avoid impossible staff standby queues.
#127
Fontaine d'honneur du Flyertalk
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Morbihan, France
Programs: Reine des Muccis de Pucci; Foreign Elitist (according to others)
Posts: 19,161
UuA are available from all but the lowest fare buckets, regardless of HBO. So about half of HBO tickets sold would be UuA eligible. Anything other that O, Q, G fare buckets - so UuA includes N, which is often fairly cheap. So on LGW-EDI, £41 is O class, not UuA eligible; £47 is N class and is UuA eligible. Both are Basic (HBO) fares, the cheapest N fare LGW-EDI which is Plus is around £54. More details in the Using Avios sticky on the front page.
They do require redemption inventory but within Europe, and avoiding peak holidays / commuter flights, CE redemptions are pretty widely available, even on the day of travel. It's not quite the US system of any available seat, there are some revenue management nuances all over this, not least because sometimes CE redemptions are available on overbooked flights, so some BA crew who live out of London use Avios to avoid impossible staff standby queues.
They do require redemption inventory but within Europe, and avoiding peak holidays / commuter flights, CE redemptions are pretty widely available, even on the day of travel. It's not quite the US system of any available seat, there are some revenue management nuances all over this, not least because sometimes CE redemptions are available on overbooked flights, so some BA crew who live out of London use Avios to avoid impossible staff standby queues.
#128
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 50
This removal of middle seat block happened on my LHR - Athens flight on Saturday morning
A few points
1 - we weren’t told about this at any point - a passenger simply boarded right before take off and was given seat 1B - which created an awkward situation for all. I don’t think it’s good enough not to be told even at boarding that this was happening.
2 - my wife and I had 1a and 1c and so I was forced to move to 1b
3 - I understand the desire to get people where they want to go but not offering anything other than an email thanking me for my compassion is pretty terrible customer service - why would I choose BA in future if that’s the culture? On a CX flight the reading light didn’t work and I was given a 150USD service voucher.
no one in their right mind would pay for business class on that 3 and a half hour flight if the only difference is some powdered eggs for breakfast - surely they should want to keep their paying customers happy.
The cabin crew told us to write to BA - what’s the conclusion as to what to ask for (I used my Marco Polo membership for crediting points)
A few points
1 - we weren’t told about this at any point - a passenger simply boarded right before take off and was given seat 1B - which created an awkward situation for all. I don’t think it’s good enough not to be told even at boarding that this was happening.
2 - my wife and I had 1a and 1c and so I was forced to move to 1b
3 - I understand the desire to get people where they want to go but not offering anything other than an email thanking me for my compassion is pretty terrible customer service - why would I choose BA in future if that’s the culture? On a CX flight the reading light didn’t work and I was given a 150USD service voucher.
no one in their right mind would pay for business class on that 3 and a half hour flight if the only difference is some powdered eggs for breakfast - surely they should want to keep their paying customers happy.
The cabin crew told us to write to BA - what’s the conclusion as to what to ask for (I used my Marco Polo membership for crediting points)
#129
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,716
Given the various paperwork that Do&Co hold, I doubt they use powdered eggs, in the UK it generally works out more expensive than real eggs.
#131
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Edinburgh
Programs: BA Gold, HHonors Gold, Priority Pass
Posts: 759
I equally understand why BA have done this however a lot of the time CE is twice the cost of ET. I'm 6'2 and the blocked middle seat for me is one of the most valuable parts of CE as well as the extra TPs.
I would complain and want minimum of 5k avios compensation but would try for 10k or a refund of the difference from CE to ET
I would complain and want minimum of 5k avios compensation but would try for 10k or a refund of the difference from CE to ET
#132
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 177
I was in CE on a flight from LHR to NC in August and the middle seat next to me was occupied. I filled in the webform asking for a few Avios and after a couple of days Customer Relations called me and I was offered and accepted 5k Avios and £30.
However, a month later I hadn't received the £30 so I followed up and after a couple of days Customer Relations called me and arranged for the £30 to paid into my bank account and offered 25k Avios as a goodwill gesture.
However, a month later I hadn't received the £30 so I followed up and after a couple of days Customer Relations called me and arranged for the £30 to paid into my bank account and offered 25k Avios as a goodwill gesture.
#133
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: UK - Hampshire & London
Programs: Mucci de Guardian des Celliers des Grands Crus 1e Classé, plus BAEC.
Posts: 2,731
I was in CE on a flight from LHR to NC in August and the middle seat next to me was occupied. I filled in the webform asking for a few Avios and after a couple of days Customer Relations called me and I was offered and accepted 5k Avios and £30.
However, a month later I hadn't received the £30 so I followed up and after a couple of days Customer Relations called me and arranged for the £30 to paid into my bank account and offered 25k Avios as a goodwill gesture.
However, a month later I hadn't received the £30 so I followed up and after a couple of days Customer Relations called me and arranged for the £30 to paid into my bank account and offered 25k Avios as a goodwill gesture.