BA,s policy [flights cancelled when pax has expired ESTA]
Jul 3, 2019, 3:32 am
#46
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As already mentioned, BA has been paid enough to transport the passenger CPH-DEN, so the occasional CPH-LHR-CPH return wouldn't be too much for them to cover.
BA can make the rules, which I still consider overly strict.
Jul 3, 2019, 3:35 am
#47
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,281
To actually be helpful to the OP:
- Certain courts (including some UK courts, and perhaps Italian courts too) have ruled that automatically cancelling return flights, when the outbound flights are not flown, and in some cases not providing a refund, is unfair. You could follow a process to try to reclaim some money, and you could potentially pursue BA in the Danish courts.
We may decide to refuse to carry you or your baggage if one or more of the following has happened or we reasonably believe may happen...
7a15) If you have not, or do not appear to have, valid travel documents.
7a16) If you try to enter a country for which your travel documents are not valid.
7a17) If the immigration authority for the country you are travelling to, or for a country in which you have a stopover, has told us (either orally or in writing) that it has decided not to allow you to enter that country, even if you have, or appear to have, valid travel documents.
7a18) If you destroy your travel documents during the flight.
7a19) If you have refused to allow us to photocopy your travel documents.
7a20) If you have refused to give your travel documents to a member of the crew of the aircraft, when we have asked you to do so.
7a21) If you ask the relevant government authorities for permission to enter a country in which you have landed as a transit passenger.
Jul 3, 2019, 3:37 am
#48
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,281
The OP is probably a thousand or more pounds down over this, and might not be used to hard-nosed business practices. I think his response is understandable.
To actually be helpful to the OP:
Now I don't think it's clear whether the ESTA constitutes a 'travel document' so 7a15 might or might not apply. Section 7a17 seems more interesting, because if it's likely that you would have the Travel Authorization by the time you got to London, then can BA still rely on that section to deny you boarding? I'm not a lawyer, though.
To actually be helpful to the OP:
- Certain courts (including some UK courts, and perhaps Italian courts too) have ruled that automatically cancelling return flights, when the outbound flights are not flown, and in some cases not providing a refund, is unfair. You could follow a process to try to reclaim some money, and you could potentially pursue BA in the Danish courts.
Now I don't think it's clear whether the ESTA constitutes a 'travel document' so 7a15 might or might not apply. Section 7a17 seems more interesting, because if it's likely that you would have the Travel Authorization by the time you got to London, then can BA still rely on that section to deny you boarding? I'm not a lawyer, though.
Jul 3, 2019, 3:50 am
#49
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To actually be helpful to the OP:
- Certain courts (including some UK courts, and perhaps Italian courts too) have ruled that automatically cancelling return flights, when the outbound flights are not flown, and in some cases not providing a refund, is unfair. You could follow a process to try to reclaim some money, and you could potentially pursue BA in the Danish courts.
There was the LH case where I think the passenger missed the last leg of an exEU type itinerary and LH tried to recover costs for a repriced ticket. Again I don't see that as being relevant here.
What cases have there been like the OP's bearing in mind the OP did not present himself at check in with the correct documents for the destination and where a partial/full refund is provided?
Btw it isn't much but I imagine the taxes and fees should be refunded to the OP in the same way that you can get them refunded for a no show on a non-refundable ticket.
Now I don't think it's clear whether the ESTA constitutes a 'travel document' so 7a15 might or might not apply.
Jul 3, 2019, 4:12 am
#50
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The OP is probably a thousand or more pounds down over this, and might not be used to hard-nosed business practices. I think his response is understandable.
To actually be helpful to the OP:
Now I don't think it's clear whether the ESTA constitutes a 'travel document' so 7a15 might or might not apply. Section 7a17 seems more interesting, because if it's likely that you would have the Travel Authorization by the time you got to London, then can BA still rely on that section to deny you boarding? I'm not a lawyer, though.
To actually be helpful to the OP:
- Certain courts (including some UK courts, and perhaps Italian courts too) have ruled that automatically cancelling return flights, when the outbound flights are not flown, and in some cases not providing a refund, is unfair. You could follow a process to try to reclaim some money, and you could potentially pursue BA in the Danish courts.
Now I don't think it's clear whether the ESTA constitutes a 'travel document' so 7a15 might or might not apply. Section 7a17 seems more interesting, because if it's likely that you would have the Travel Authorization by the time you got to London, then can BA still rely on that section to deny you boarding? I'm not a lawyer, though.
An ESTA is a travel document, clear and simple. It is an electronic visa waiver form. It is as much a travel document for entry to the US as a passport is. The suggestion that it's a 'nice to have' is not true. Non of the exemptions listed above will apply in this case, in part because the ticket sold was to the US, not a bunch of intermediate stops.
Jul 3, 2019, 4:13 am
#51
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"especially if the passenger can enter the UK" then the passenger is not stuck in the airport.
As already mentioned, BA has been paid enough to transport the passenger CPH-DEN, so the occasional CPH-LHR-CPH return wouldn't be too much for them to cover.
BA can make the rules, which I still consider overly strict.
As already mentioned, BA has been paid enough to transport the passenger CPH-DEN, so the occasional CPH-LHR-CPH return wouldn't be too much for them to cover.
BA can make the rules, which I still consider overly strict.
Would agents need to check fares before deciding whether to allow partial travel or not? Would they even be allowed to charge a cost for a CPH-LHR or DEN-LHR which is not what the passenger bought?
Do you also realise that this may also invalidate travel insurance cover for the passenger if it includes any stipulation on visa being denied?
Jul 3, 2019, 4:15 am
#52
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,281
Ultimately, having an 'ESTA' just means your name is on a guest-list of names (together with some other identifying features) of people allowed to travel to the USA without a visa. There is no ESTA document, whether in hard-copy or in pdf format. This might be different to the e-Visas some countries issue (which are required to be printed out and shown at immigration).
Jul 3, 2019, 4:22 am
#53
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Ultimately, having an 'ESTA' just means your name is on a guest-list of names (together with some other identifying features) of people allowed to travel to the USA without a visa. There is no ESTA document, whether in hard-copy or in pdf format. This might be different to the e-Visas some countries issue (which are required to be printed out and shown at immigration).
Btw you can print your ESTA confirmation document from the ESTA site - I usually do.
Jul 3, 2019, 5:14 am
#54
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Sure there is. There is an electronic document, downloadable in pdf format, that confirms that authorisation was approved, along with an application number and the relevant passport information. Important is not the piece of paper, but rather the fact that authorisation is registered with CBP. I don't think this is any different from the green I-94W forms previously issued, namely that ultimate authority rests with CBP. In the context I think it's a bit fanciful to describe an ESTA as a guest list.
Jul 3, 2019, 8:21 am
#55
Join Date: Aug 2016
Programs: BAEC GOLD, Star Alliance, HH Gold
Posts: 75
I’m surprised no one has mentioned yet that every time you travel to USA you are supposed to edit your ESTA and enter the address you are staying when you arrive. If you don’t I’m guessing that you are probably breaking the rules anyway. Obviously when you make your edit you would know immediately if it had expired.
We generally edit ours when we enter the required information on the booking.
I should have added we were strongly advised to update our address on the ESTA but I realise now we wrongly took it to mean mandatory. On one occasion entering Miami we had to show proof of our booking confirmation.
I've come to the conclusion it's best practice to stick with unknown.
We generally edit ours when we enter the required information on the booking.
I should have added we were strongly advised to update our address on the ESTA but I realise now we wrongly took it to mean mandatory. On one occasion entering Miami we had to show proof of our booking confirmation.
I've come to the conclusion it's best practice to stick with unknown.
Last edited by Light Travellers; Jul 10, 2019 at 3:45 am Reason: Added info giving reason for reply.
Jul 3, 2019, 2:23 pm
#56
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 57
I’m surprised no one has mentioned yet that every time you travel to USA you are supposed to edit your ESTA and enter the address you are staying when you arrive. If you don’t I’m guessing that you are probably breaking the rules anyway. Obviously when you make your edit you would know immediately if it had expired.
We generally edit ours when we enter the required information on the booking.
We generally edit ours when we enter the required information on the booking.
Related question from the ESTA FAQs:
> Can prospective travelers apply for an ESTA without specific travel plans if they want to be able to travel to the United States later on short notice?
> Yes. VWP travelers are not required to have specific plans to travel to the United States before they apply for an ESTA.If a traveler’s destination in the United States is unknown when he or she completes the ESTA application, the traveler should enter “Unknown.” Travelers may update this information when their plans are finalized, but they will not be required to update their destination addresses or itineraries should they change after their ESTA application has been approved. DHS recommends that ESTA applications be submitted as early as possible, as soon as, or even before travel is planned. ESTA will accept applications from last-minute and emergency travelers – those VWP travelers who arrive at the airport without an approved ESTA.
Jul 3, 2019, 4:16 pm
#57
Join Date: Oct 2006
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If he has an EU passport why is there an issue? Just issue bp and tag bag as far as LHR. Clear UK Immigration (assuming EU passport) and not BA’s problem. And no obligation on BA or anyone else to return - and no obligation on op to leave.
Jul 3, 2019, 5:35 pm
#58
Join Date: Apr 2018
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 267
I’m surprised no one has mentioned yet that every time you travel to USA you are supposed to edit your ESTA and enter the address you are staying when you arrive. If you don’t I’m guessing that you are probably breaking the rules anyway. Obviously when you make your edit you would know immediately if it had expired.
We generally edit ours when we enter the required information on the booking.
We generally edit ours when we enter the required information on the booking.
I think that if they even do check the information they will look at your API on the booking instead.
Jul 4, 2019, 2:15 am
#59
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Scotland
Posts: 377
[QUOTE=jfallesen;31267096]The system tells you that you can enter "UNKNOWN" in the address field if you do not know the address at the time of applying. I do not recall seeing a requirement to then update it at a later stage and it has certainly never been an issue for me to have my ESTA saying "UNKNOWN" on several arrivals to the US.
I've never bothered to update my address when visiting the US in multiple trips so as stated its not a problem..
I've never bothered to update my address when visiting the US in multiple trips so as stated its not a problem..
Jul 4, 2019, 2:33 am
#60
Join Date: May 2013
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A literal reading of that section would also seem to apply to ITI connections through the US...